Is the West in decline?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Sava
so?

foundation schmoundation...

you know what else is the foundation for human civilization?

worshipping fire...

worshipping the sun...

worshipping the stars...

IGNORANCE is the foundation for our civilization...

Sava sees ignorance. I see a capacity for abstract thought, creative intelligence, and a deep and productive curiosity about our place in the universe- key factors of what makes us human.

[Az]

Laz

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: Is the West in decline?

Originally posted by Odin
I haven't been able to stop thinking about this today. Modern thought has been thoroughly infected with Post-Mondernist nonsense.

Aspergers, isn't it?

Struggling with shades of grey?

[Az]

Aspergers, isn't it?

Struggling with shades of grey?

Is "moderately infected" better?

[Saras]

Originally posted by Dauphin
What would you replace capital markets and shares with?

The paragons of efficient distribution of capital, the Central Planning Committees, of course

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Revolution is only at fault for it's consequences if the reformers don't first attempt peaceful means. When the establishment responds to peaceful reform with violence the blood and destruction in the resulting conflict is entirely the fault of the reactionaries. If reactionaries don't want to be held responsible for such consequences then they ought to use only civilized means to attempt to maintain the status quo.

So, reactionaries can not use force to defend their beliefs, but revolutionaries can? Why? Who gives them that right?

Yes, because all of these things were pioneered by the Church before the reformation. Their centuries of barbaric inquisitional persecution of 'heretics' including generous amounts of banning, killing, persecution of 'heretics' in all areas the Church could reach, and forcible conversion of 'heretical' lands (and guess what generally became of the heretics property?).

there weren't many heresies in the Occident before the end of XII/start of XIII century. Only then institutional persecution of heretics (that is, by use of inquisition and crusades) started, and its not that the church didn't start peaceful attempts at first: the crusades in southern France started when papal legate was killed by heretics. Earlier, the most popular way of fighting the heretics were public debates. Also, that's the way the church started fighting Luther at first.

kick a dog long enough and you get a mean dog.

Hard not to kick it if it bites You.
Does a state allow its provinces to make their own laws and revolt?

The reformation was absolutely essential to end this ghastly legacy. The tragedy was in the efforts of the church to stamp it out. That's when the reformers began to take cues from their persecuters.

So, the reformation was needed to end the "ghastly legacy" of RCC, but actually it did and continued doing the same, if not worse?

HOW did it end the "ghastly legacy", then?
The most tolerant of Europe of that time was catholic Poland-Lithuania, though still not perfect. In comparison, newly converted protestant states were simply fundamentalist.
At the end of XIV and start of XV century Polish lawyers officially questioned the right of pope and emperor to the land of unbelievers and the notion that a war against unbelievers is always just. They claimed that pagans have right to their own states and to defending it, and Christians can help them, for it is a right war, then. Also, they claimed that catholics can use pagans and heretics and schismatics in their army.
Of all the states of Europe, Poland-Lithuania had the best relations with hussite movement. Actually, the gouvernor sent by great prince Witold elected the king of Bohemia had his capital in my hometown.
In the 20's of XV century, the orthodox were given the same laws as catholics. At the start of XVI century, despite the anti-protestant edicts, there was no harm to them, and, with exceptions for years (if I'm not mistaken) 1717-1765, the protestants were allowed to the offices,
including the highest non-clergy offices in the state.
Also, it was thanks to Poland that the first Lutheran duchy, Prussia, appeared on the map.
Also, Poland was an asile for Jews.
One of the demands given to Henry Valois before He could became Polish king was religious freedom in France.
And still, it was majorly catholic, with catholic kings and bishops being the highest of the senators.
And really, the situation in the rest of Europe, including protestant states, was pretty different, wasn't it.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Heresson

The most tolerant of Europe of that time was catholic Poland-Lithuania, though still not perfect. In comparison, newly converted protestant states were simply fundamentalist.

At the end of XIV and start of XV century Polish lawyers officially questioned the right of pope and emperor to the land of unbelievers and the notion that a war against unbelievers is always just. They claimed that pagans have right to their own states and to defending it, and Christians can help them, for it is a right war, then. Also, they claimed that catholics can use pagans and heretics and schismatics in their army.

Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth, the original European Union

Of all the states of Europe, Poland-Lithuania had the best relations with hussite movement. Actually, the gouvernor sent by great prince Witold elected the king of Bohemia had his capital in my hometown.

VYTAUTAS. V-Y-T-A-U-T-A-S

In the 20's of XV century, the orthodox were given the same laws as catholics. At the start of XVI century, despite the anti-protestant edicts, there was no harm to them, and, with exceptions for years (if I'm not mistaken) 1717-1765, the protestants were allowed to the offices,
including the highest non-clergy offices in the state.
Also, it was thanks to Poland that the first Lutheran duchy, Prussia, appeared on the map.
Also, Poland was an asile for Jews.
One of the demands given to Henry Valois before He could became Polish king was religious freedom in France.
And still, it was majorly catholic, with catholic kings and bishops being the highest of the senators.
And really, the situation in the rest of Europe, including protestant states, was pretty different, wasn't it.

Well, we were the exception that proved the rule. And this tolerance was dictated by many things, most primarily had to do with our unique location and the amount of other nations, religions and laws that had to be accommodated in this territorially huge country.

Also, imagine the "ease" of religiously opressing orthodox slavs with a growing Moscow nearby.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Sava sees ignorance. I see a capacity for abstract thought, creative intelligence, and a deep and productive curiosity about our place in the universe- key factors of what makes us human.

Sava and Laz are missing the point. Ignorance, abstract thinking, curiosity, etc are common possessions of civilized and non-civilized people. The foundation of civilization is large-scale social organization.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Dauphin
What would you replace capital markets and shares with?

Why would I want to do such a thing?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Sava and Laz are missing the point. Ignorance, abstract thinking, curiosity, etc are common possessions of civilized and non-civilized people. The foundation of civilization is large-scale social organization.

Laz is finding his point just fine, thanks all the same. It's just a different one (though still entirely valid) to the one you're making.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Why would I want to do such a thing?

For one, to raise money for various economic endeavours. How you going to do that?

[Tingkai]

It;s like Billy Bragg said: Just because you're going forward doesn't mean I'm going backwards.

[Odin]

Herreson conveniently forgets that the Catholic Church had been trying to SUPRESS the scientific revolution. *cough* Galileo *cough* If I remeber right, the material written by his fellow Pole, Copernicus, was put on the Church's list of forbidden books

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Odin
Herreson conveniently forgets that the Catholic Church had been trying to SUPRESS the scientific revolution. *cough* Galileo *cough* If I remeber right, the material written by his fellow Pole, Copernicus, was put on the Church's list of forbidden books

Copernicus dedicated his most famous work, On the Revolution of the Celestial Orbs, to Pope Paul III.

[Dauphin]

That is to say, play the game and you can publish the works.