Actually the Church did compell the Roman Empire to abolish slavery and the gladiatorial circuses in the 5th century, but it was too little too late. The empire succumbed to the germans a generation later and the germans instituted the modified form of slavery known as serfdom. In fact in some parts of the former empire the conquerinf germans and the former inhabitants or the empire were ruled by seperate codes of law, so slavery was legal for the germans but not for the ex-romans.
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Is the West in decline?
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Re: Is the West in decline?
Originally posted by Odin
I haven't been able to stop thinking about this today. Modern thought has been thoroughly infected with Post-Mondernist nonsense. Eco-Luddites protest every advance in genetics. Society continues to get more and more decadent, and young people seem to be more into New Age/Oriental mysticism than science and reason (which reminds me of the mysticism that took hold during the late Roman Empire). Is the end near?
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Originally posted by Odin
What I worry about is that if China is still undemocratic when it becomes #1, the elite in the developing countries will see it as meaning that the Chinese-style oligarchy is better than western Democracy, erasing over 200 years of political advancement.
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"Of course the occident is in decay. After all that's his job!" (Free translation from Eco's Foucault's Pendulum)"The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
"Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.
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First of all, it's not true; the church treated liberating slaves as sth good, and St Constantine after becoming emperor assured that making harm to them was the same punished as making harm to a free person.. That's because they have the benefit of history. At the time, when the issue was a hot one, mainstream church thought opposed those who would progress morality in order to eliminate these evils. We see that process occuring today.
The reason is very simple... those that would eliminate these evils would, by doing so, threaten the status quo, at the centre of which was the Church. Then of course there are the fundies who are out on their own agenda.
And they weren't saints, either. They did persecute X-nity where they could and did betray Byzantines during their war with Persians, cheerfully helping them in massacres of Christians
Heretics WERE Christian... But anyway, heresies in the R/BE were treated as dangerous to the unity of the state, along with pre-christian notion of that RE should be united by one cult. Heresies such as paulicians/bogomils/cathars were dangerous anti-orthodox anti-state sects.Violent oppresion will often cause violence in people who wish to fight it, but while understandable, it makes them just as bad as their oppressors, so the question for history is one of better consequence. It is a good consequence that the grip of the Church has steadily weakened since the 16th Century
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Lutheran heresy was worse than all the above together
but the church and the state had to defend themselves sometimes
Secondly, do You think that freedom, education, healthcare etc are the result of the actions of the atheist minority?
it was the case until the Enlightement - a movement that ended in the terror of the Revolution, in the holocaust of Vandea."I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
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Originally posted by Whaleboy
I have no argument with them. Nor is it being disputed that the Church today opposes slavery, suppression of women, and the burning of atheists, Jews and people who had a slightly different idea of transubstantiation. That's because they have the benefit of history. At the time, when the issue was a hot one, mainstream church thought opposed those who would progress morality in order to eliminate these evils. We see that process occuring today.
Also, who made that history but Christians?
The reason is very simple... those that would eliminate these evils would, by doing so, threaten the status quo, at the centre of which was the Church. Then of course there are the fundies who are out on their own agenda.
A small number of Jews, who have always had to bear the brunt of the Christian thirst for blood.
Besides, the "well you did it too" argument is neither an explanation nor an excuse, particularly when it's a half-baked, irrelevant example.
other communities, and often weren't done without a reason.
You ever heard the phrase that history is always written by the victor?Violent oppresion will often cause violence in people who wish to fight it, but while understandable, it makes them just as bad as their oppressors, so the question for history is one of better consequence. It is a good consequence that the grip of the Church has steadily weakened since the 16th Century
.
That's pretty much the crux of your argument here and frankly it's ludicrous. A system that supresses women, that burns freethinkers, that does not tolerate challenges to its totalitarian authority, has the right to persecute these people in order to defend the status quo? You sound like the kind of person who think that the Vatican is an island in an ocean of rising acid!
WTF? Where was that even suggested?
It's funny then, that the Christian (and/or ex-Christian) states are the most liberal today and the most developed.
Oh please! The intellectual renaissance of the Enlightenment was precisely that: intellectual. That people would use words and twist them for their own bloody agenda is hardly the fault of people like Paine, Kant, Voltaire and the like. It's like blaming Plato for the Nazi's!
You probably mean that the church is one organisation,
but then, You can not blame all the Christianity for specific sins, but some denominations, and even that would be dumb; do You blame 18 y.o. German for nazis, f.e?
And when it comes to the people You've mentioned,
Voltaire himself was a man that deserves disdain, though I love Candid; He'd write and do anything to gain wealth, he praised treacheries and keeping nations in slavery, if it was done by his patrons.
Plato, on the other hand, in his imagination created a state in comparison to which (not counting dealing with other nations) III Reich can be regarded as asylum of freedom and humanitarism.Last edited by Heresson; August 28, 2005, 15:16."I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
Middle East!
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Originally posted by Heresson
the rise of protestantism brought bloody wars, persecutions on both sides, conquiscates of rightful church poverty, destruction of innumerable objects of art.
it was the intolerance of the church for such 'heresy' which made such catastrophies totally inevitable. Your logic suggests that every revolution is a horrible crime because all the damage and fallout during the revolution is the fault of those who were persecuted under the status quo.
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Originally posted by Geronimo
BS
it was the intolerance of the church for such 'heresy' which made such catastrophies totally inevitable. Your logic suggests that every revolution is a horrible crime because all the damage and fallout during the revolution is the fault of those who were persecuted under the status quo.
It counts into the costs of progress, sometimes, but You can't deny the responsibility.
(But I should not use that wod, How can we say if a thing called progress exists? Progress is modern-day God. But what is it? It is just a getting closer to an ideal ACCORDING TO SOME word. In another way, saying that something is backward is just saying "I don't like it" and saying something is progressive is saying "I like it", and nothing more).
What makes You feel that some revolution is justified? To make laws for people more equal? People will never be equal. They born with money or without it, with beauty or without it, with talents or without them, as citizens of a superpower or citizens of some island on forgotten sea.
Revolution is just a mass-scale robbery, even if it seems justified.
Also, when I mentioned destruction of works of art, I was referring to the iconoclastic zeal of protestantism.
Also, is catholicism responsible for the banning, killing, persecution of catholics in protestant states? For forcible protestantisation of catholic lands? For greed of protestant rulers who took the property of the church?
And most important of all,
For the millions of protestant souls going straight to hell?
Also: behave. BS is an ugly word.
"I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
Middle East!
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Originally posted by Heresson
Actually, it is. Just like every war is responsible for the destruction it brings, every revolution is.
It counts into the costs of progress, sometimes, but You can't deny the responsibility.
(But I should not use that wod, How can we say if a thing called progress exists? Progress is modern-day God. But what is it? It is just a getting closer to an ideal ACCORDING TO SOME word. In another way, saying that something is backward is just saying "I don't like it" and saying something is progressive is saying "I like it", and nothing more).
What makes You feel that some revolution is justified? To make laws for people more equal? People will never be equal. They born with money or without it, with beauty or without it, with talents or without them, as citizens of a superpower or citizens of some island on forgotten sea.
Revolution is just a mass-scale robbery, even if it seems justified.
Originally posted by Heresson
Also, when I mentioned destruction of works of art, I was referring to the iconoclastic zeal of protestantism.
Also, is catholicism responsible for the banning, killing, persecution of catholics in protestant states? For forcible protestantisation of catholic lands? For greed of protestant rulers who took the property of the church?
And most important of all,
For the millions of protestant souls going straight to hell?
Also: behave. BS is an ugly word.
kick a dog long enough and you get a mean dog.
The reformation was absolutely essential to end this ghastly legacy. The tragedy was in the efforts of the church to stamp it out. That's when the reformers began to take cues from their persecuters.Last edited by Geronimo; August 28, 2005, 21:59.
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Q: Is the West in decline?
A: No.
-=Vel=-
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Originally posted by Odin
Anyway, my ideal state is a mix of democracy and meritocracy, a kind of democratic Technocracy.Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
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Originally posted bySmiley
That would require every citizen to be a technical expert - the question is, what's the fastest and most painless way to get there?
For instance establishment of death taxes ("estate taxes") on wealthy estates insures that people are less likely to gain substantial financial power and influence due solely to being born into it. In the absence of such a mechanism that prevents the hereditary amassing of large fortunes a society tends to become the reverse of a meritocracy.Last edited by Geronimo; August 29, 2005, 01:33.
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Originally posted by Geronimo
For instance establishment of death taxes ("estate taxes") on wealthy estates insures that people are less likely to gain substantial financial power and influence due solely to being born into it. In the absence of such a mechanism that prevents the hereditary amassing of large fortunes a society tends to become the reverse of a meritocracy.
While you are at it abolish the fictional entities called "corporations"(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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That would require every citizen to be a technical expert - the question is, what's the fastest and most painless way to get there?
A revolution in the field of education. However, the current method has very large strengths of it's own.
Btw, it's too bad that the thread was threadjacked by a meaningless Xianity debate.
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