Is the West in decline?

[Whaleboy]

like it or not christianity is one of the key foundations upon which western civilisation is built.

Indeed, in much the same way as war, slavery and superstition.

[C0ckney]

the first one i'll certainly agree with.

the other two are rubbish strawmen, but then we both know that

[Whaleboy]

Cheap (or preferably free) labour is a vital component for a rising economy... look at Egypt... to construct something so draining as the pyramids today would be nigh-on impossible. Although the buildings themselves are probably a lot easier, it would be like us building a suspension bridge over the Atlantic. Without slavery, and before it surfdom, I doubt the West would ever have become what it is. Doesn't mean it sucks any less, and ditto organised religion .

Superstition, as Christianity...perhaps abuse of women would have been more appropriate, but really there are so many moral evils upon which the West is based you can take your pick. I would consider Christianity to be at the head of them.

Fortunately, we have eliminated slavery, war is but a plaything for the media, woman have been largely emancipated and we all enjoy freedom, good education, good standards of healthcare etc. Artists and those with the ability to think can do what their minds will without fear of persecution by idiots, and where such a fear or misunderstanding exists, historically it has often been the church that has been behind it.

We would be better if organised religion is to be eliminated, but it won't be easy considering that the church has been opposed to EVERY example of moral progress in its time... be it slavery, womens rights, rights for Jews, heretics, and now it happens to be gays.

[C0ckney]

whaleboy, it's 3am, and i've got work tomorrow, so i'm not really up for a mass debate on the subject, but very briefly.

you can point to a million negative things which happened in our past, are these all 'foundations of western civilisation', i think not. i simply don't think you can argue that christianity isn't a foundation upon which western civilisation is built. whereas your examples, slavery, is serfdom slavery? i think that's a thread in itself and if not then you're wrong. as for 'superstition’, now there's a vague and woolly term, which can very easily be twisted to mean just about anything, as you yourself have demonstrated very well.

so yeah, i stand by my statement.

[Sava]

I don't think anyone is arguing that christianity ISN't a foundation...

we're saying that being a foundation doesn't exactly make it a positive part of our civilization

and whaleboy is correct...

slavery is just as much a foundation as christianity...

[Whaleboy]

so yeah, i stand by my statement.

My argument was not that Christianity isn't the foundation upon which the West was built. On the contrary, I believe that the West was built upon many moral evils, and primary among them was Christianity. We have successfully eliminated many of these evils, and when we are rid of the Church there will be less to ****** progress, moral or otherwise.

[Whaleboy]

it's 3am, and i've got work tomorrow

You're working on a Sunday!?!?! Burn, foul apostate!

[C0ckney]

well that's ok then.

i disagree with the rest of what you say, but it's not as if either of us is going to change our minds

[Sava]

that's because you're wrong

[Odin]

Originally posted by C0ckney


like it or not christianity is one of the key foundations upon which western civilisation is built.

So was serfdom, slavery, and exploitation of the working class. Your point?

[Vince278]

Is the West in decline?

Compared to what? The East?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Remind me again where all the big computer and bio-tech companies are again? I think you'll find the "West" holds a vast majority of them.

I agree with alva. It's a perception thing rather than reality.

Biotech is in retreat in all non medical fields in the west in terms of investment being raised. In China its expanding at breakneck speed. This due in huge measure to the vendettas of ignorant luddite ********* against biotech research and the chilling effects it has had on investment in those countries.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by C0ckney
whaleboy, it's 3am, and i've got work tomorrow, so i'm not really up for a mass debate on the subject, but very briefly.

you can point to a million negative things which happened in our past, are these all 'foundations of western civilisation', i think not. i simply don't think you can argue that christianity isn't a foundation upon which western civilisation is built. whereas your examples, slavery, is serfdom slavery? i think that's a thread in itself and if not then you're wrong. as for 'superstition’, now there's a vague and woolly term, which can very easily be twisted to mean just about anything, as you yourself have demonstrated very well.

so yeah, i stand by my statement.

'foundations of civilization' should not be thought of as truly analgous to the foundations of physical structures.

Foundations of a civilization can evolve into unrecognizable forms or even disappear from a society entirely without the society collapsing. I agree that Christianity was a foundation perhaps even the foundation of what we usually think of when we say 'western civilization' but to say that it still is a foundation of that same region today would be absurd. Across the board all religion has been marginalized throughout the region and in no sense functions as a foundation of it anymore.

If the next generation were 100% athiests the civilization could chug along essentially unchanged.

[Heresson]

Fortunately, we have eliminated slavery, war is but a plaything for the media, woman have been largely emancipated and we all enjoy freedom, good education, good standards of healthcare etc. Artists and those with the ability to think can do what their minds will without fear of persecution by idiots, and where such a fear or misunderstanding exists, historically it has often been the church that has been behind it.

We would be better if organised religion is to be eliminated, but it won't be easy considering that the church has been opposed to EVERY example of moral progress in its time... be it slavery, womens rights, rights for Jews, heretics, and now it happens to be gays.

First of all, it's not true; the church treated liberating slaves as sth good, and St Constantine after becoming emperor assured that making harm to them was the same punished as making harm to a free person. The church actually promoted up to some point the rights of women in the western world, changing the marriage from a kind of transaction between families to a sacrament that needed an approval of both sides, including the woman. Jews had some rights. And they weren't saints, either. They did persecute X-nity where they could and did betray Byzantines during their war with Persians, cheerfully helping them in massacres of Christians, burning of bishops etc; Heraclius' times were the times of first big persecutions of them, and He issued a letter to the western monarchs urging them to persecute them as well - after these events.
Heretics WERE Christian... But anyway, heresies in the R/BE were treated as dangerous to the unity of the state, along with pre-christian notion of that RE should be united by one cult. Heresies such as paulicians/bogomils/cathars were dangerous anti-orthodox anti-state sects. Paulicians were siding Arabs in the war against Byzantines; Bogomils were siding Patzinaks and they both claimed that the church, and the churches including Hagia Sofia, should be destroyed. Donatist heresy ended in the movement of circumcelliones and milites Christi, being a cause of turmoil in Africa. Lutheran heresy was worse than all the above together. Not that all of them didn't have some points right, or that what was done to them was always right: but the church and the state had to defend themselves sometimes, and the case is not that black&white as You, in your hatred towards religion, claim to be.
Secondly, do You think that freedom, education, healthcare etc are the result of the actions of the atheist minority? Give me a break.
And what with all the Christian art, philosophy, science? Again, in MA it was the church that was in the avangarde of progress, and it was the case until the Enlightement - a movement that ended in the terror of the Revolution, in the holocaust of Vandea.

[Last Conformist]

The West is in absolute ascent but relative decline.