Is There a European Bible Belt?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Winston
He's not really from Great Britain, is he?

Schmardy pants.


Strictly speaking he's not from 'Great Britain' but he is from the United Kingdom and therefore unfortunately British.

Email me whenever Ian Paisley speaks (no more than once per day*)

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/ian_paisley/north_antrim

* If only...

[St Leo]

But to mention what gave Europe it's identity, it is a political sin it seems.

Wotan.

More seriously, how much did Christianity contribute to European identity? The Catholic church has certainly lasted a hell of a long time for an organization. amusing episodes like three simultaneous Popes notwithstanding. Still, has it done much or is it just old?

What would the US equivalent be? If a new constitution were written today, should long-lived organizations like the, uh, ACLU be mentioned?

[Bereta_Eder]

One could say that religion has done a much more unifying job in the US than in europa
i mean where else can you hear a president saying god bless our country and not elicit popped eyes and/or comvulsing laughter? apart places like afganistan maybe

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Still weekends are supposed to be for shopping and stuff, because that's when you aren't working.

And then the people that provide you the services for when you go shopping and so forth, are WORKING on the weekends.

[Heresson]

More seriously, how much did Christianity contribute to European identity? The Catholic church has certainly lasted a hell of a long time for an organization. amusing episodes like three simultaneous Popes notwithstanding. Still, has it done much or is it just old?

Are You kidding? Christian monasteries and Christian Empire (that is, Byzantium) preserved ancient knowledge and created much of Middle Ages, created Europe.
What would Europe have been without all its cathedrals and monasteries? What would it have been without romanesque style or gothic? What united medieval Europe (and it's the time when Europe's borned) but Christianity, papacy, centralised orders such as cisterses or war orders, "emperor and priest" in the east (words of Leon III) and papacy-made empire of the West, and crusades? Didn't all the science and culture up till Renaissance and further rest in the hands of the clergy? Isn't religion responsible for much or most of European music, architecture, sculpture, paintings, philosophy, and history?
"Europe" was and is the term for lands of Christian tradition, with little exceptions. Aragon, Byzantium, France, Poland etc had temporary alliances with Muslims, but the religion was the thing that united the region politically and culturally: only later did some of this region, now understood as a geographical term, lose some of its Christian character. Still, it bears Christian tradition - they have crosses in their flags, learn in schools about European, which is Christian, culture, not other: are You sure a Chineese or even a Turk learns in schools about St Thomas or St Augustine or St Benedict, about investiture fight between pope and emperor etc? European/Western tradition is Christian as much as its Greek and Roman.

[alva]

What would Europe have been without all its cathedrals and monasteries?

Taking weekend trips to Mars?

[Bereta_Eder]

I agree that "christianity" played a significant part in the formation of the west and of the east. The preample of the constituion is very lacking. it touches things that are politically corect (ancient greece/rome, enlgithnment) but leaves out things that for political reasons and for social reasons they might create tentions. but one cant say with a straight face that christianity played no part. from charlomagne and afterwards and with the duality of autority of the emperor and patriarch in the east (nice one that, emperor for controlling bodies, patriarch for controlling minds eh? ) it did play a significant role in shaping geopolitics and attitudes, values etc not for unifying anybody but it did create matter in what is the tip of eurasia.

if the constitution wanted to state things that prevail through out that tip and forming its identity (which is not one of course) then it should have been included but it's politically incorect. if it wanted to give a unifying aspect to it then it shouldnt be there (crusades against byzantium, endless rage betweern protestants/catholics etc). but if the latter is the case then neither should rome or ancient greece or indeed enlightment be there. they didnt produce unifying things. but they did produce pneumatic (mental/spiritual/values) background as did christianity in its 3 branches.


so the preample to the con. imo is a nice little sweet applepie. tasty to eat and with no bitter flavor.

[Kassiopeia]

Originally posted by Pekka
Oh and PS. The religion classes ARE NOT MANDATORY.

If your school does not have enough students who don't belong to the Lutheran church to form an irreligious "life philosophy" or "world view" class, it can be - I think it varies school by school.

And they certainly ARE NOT CHRISTIAN RELIGION.

It is, if you belong to the church. The "world religion" classes you talk about are only a third of the required religion courses in a upper secondary school degree. The other two courses are on the history of the Christian church and ethics from a Christian point of view.

The comprehensive school religion classes in the lower grades are even more dumbed-down, focusing mostly on learning the stories in the Bible. Why should the tax payers' money go to teaching Christianity to Christian children? Why can't the church do that? Whatever happened to Sunday schools? Religion has no place whatsoever in the curriculum of a school funded by the state. No matter how many percent of the population at large belong to the Lutheran church. (90 and falling!)

And even if that wasn't enough, Finland has this little crime called "breach of religious freedom", which is usually only used if Christian icons like Christ or God are insulted or blasphemed. "Blasphemy" hasnt' been a crime for a few decades, but the same thing lives on in this particular piece of legal gobbledygook.

Just last week someone was charged with breach of religious freedom for insulting God and Christ on an Internet forum. (There were two charges, the other one was for disruption of telecommunications - he spammed the forum down.)

Finland firmly belongs to the Euro Bible Belt.

[Bereta_Eder]

and imo there is no one europe. actually i hear this and i dont know if i should freak out or laugh. this effort to create common identity is unerstandable but one risks being very silly about it. europe for one is an artificial saying. africa has clear cut lines. so does latin america. europe has been forcefully enclosed and with prerepmtoriness definded in some space in time by a simple geographer.

now i see the reason for the effort to accuantiate similar traits from one end of europe to the other but it is a very difficult business and risks getting one looking really silly. but it is working. in its most destructive way i might say because now some people of extremes try to push away muslim religion and say that this is where the lines of europe are drawn. where one religion ends and another begins. i dont accept that, noone with a sane mind would. it is too simple minded. of course there are huge differences but what about inside differences as well? i'd hope that this little tip which really shaped a lot of what this world is today and has many reasons why it can feel a certain pride for its achievements (not forgetting to feel shame for its crimes too) doesnt need some "fathers" of ethnogenisis to create a country out of it so as to be peaceful. i think it can do that on its own. although i'm not generally opposed to creating unifying aspects, i am opposed to creating differentiantial aspects to what they call "outsiders". things are not that simple. it might work for a nationalist who believes his countrymen are the best and his country the best but wont work for those who start from the starting point that all are the same and that differences are best left there without need to "form" them and make them "fit" in one single mold.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
Just last week someone was charged with breach of religious freedom for insulting God and Christ on an Internet forum. (There were two charges, the other one was for disruption of telecommunications - he spammed the forum down.)

HAHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAAAAAHAHA! Now Pekka cant say Finland has no such laws and that he can offend who he wants There goes freedom pekka

[alva]

[q="Paiktis"]
and imo there is no one europe.[/q]

Neither is there one Greece, one England, or one France.

[Bereta_Eder]

How do you mean that?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Bereta_Eder
europe has been forcefully enclosed and with prerepmtoriness definded in some space in time by a simple geographer.

But Europe's cut out of Asia exactly because it has cultural identity.

and say that this is where the lines of europe are drawn. where one religion ends and another begins.

why? Europe has to has its boarders, and as it has no clear geographical boarder... and even if it had, cultural boarders are better. Because boarder between Spain and Morocco, f.e. is not only ethnical and religious boarder, but also cultural. Different music is played, different history taught, different authorities (not only religious) honoured.
If You want something to last, You must try to discover or build its identity, You must make it consistent.
Otherwise, it will dissolve.

Just last week someone was charged with breach of religious freedom for insulting God and Christ on an Internet forum.

Why is it that bad? it all depends on what he's said. People should not be allowed to offend everyone, esp. people being important to others. You can criticise, but not offend.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Heresson


But Europe's cut out of Asia exactly because it has cultural identity.

yes...

why? Europe has to has its boarders, and as it has no clear geographical boarder... and even if it had, cultural boarders are better. Because boarder between Spain and Morocco, f.e. is not only ethnical and religious boarder, but also cultural. Different music is played, different history taught, different authorities (not only religious) honoured.
If You want something to last, You must try to discover or build its identity, You must make it consistent.
Otherwise, it will dissolve.

it is silly to say that europe is one because spain has different dances from maroco. actually they have similar dances and both have nothing to do with some feetstomping people who drink liker from the skull of a dead person in the north!!!

instead europe should focus not in creating a common identity, it isnt there, but to simply ask from everyone who wants to join some simple things. do you have democracy that works (not circus democracy as turkey) are you secular? (not blended like iran) is your quality of life in a position to not tax the eu so much? do you respect human rights?

if all of this is a yes, then it belongs in europe. which religion it has is of no importance. if it is a no then it doesnt. I see europe as a place where some very basic but very important requisitives are demanded and obvserved. not like some experiment in creating "italy" or many other countries which were created with a little "push". (I wont say artificially) It can be one country but I dont see why it has to be one nation. silly and sad if it ever did.

[Pekka]

bereta_eder, So what, they're not laws to be obeyed. The prosecutor clearly is out of his/her mind. This is the first I ever heard of such case, and I bet to most also.

I'm still free to disrespect any religion I want. Stupid laws are only rules to some, carbage to the rest. To me, it is carbage. not religions, but not allowing me to bash them.

And it still hasn't gone through this case. Only psycho prosecutor has got their panties on a twist. This means, nothing is yet done. Though I admit I am very disappointed the prossiecutor even tries this. The judge won't be such a fundie I'd assume, and hope.

"If your school does not have enough students who don't belong to the Lutheran church to form an irreligious "life philosophy" or "world view" class, it can be "

Then it's a mistake, because everyone has a right to the world view. In my class there was only one girl, and she got it. It was one on one with a teacher. That's it. If that doesn't happen somewhere else, then it's a mistake. You have a right not go participate them. Period and definite FACT.

Why don't you read what Kassi said. Blasphemy isn't a crime in here. Or does your selective reading and understanding get in your way of truly getting it?

ANd second of all, the case, while it is unfortunate, had more to do with the person ****ing up the forums for months in a row.

"The "world religion" classes you talk about are only a third of the required religion courses in a upper secondary school degree. The other two courses are on the history of the Christian church and ethics from a Christian point of view."

Not my fault, in our school this wasn't the case. I guess YOU live in the bible belt.