The Disengagement Thread

[Japher]

I'm with Az

Question: Why force anyone out? Why not just withdraw the claim and let those who want to stay deal with whatever will happen to them?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Az
q]
as for why jews shouldnt remain in Gaze, i would think thats frightfully obvious - if they stay, and the Pal Authorities abuse them, or are accused of abusing them, that creates another point of friction between israel and the PA. [/q]

It's their choice - if they want to stay, why not let them? The fact that it's a "friction point" is meaningless. Arab Israelis are also a "friction point". Forcing them out of their houses now would still be a crime.

Israel treats them as citizens, and Israel is stable democratic polity. Jews in Gaza would be seen as foreigners, and would be a football in internal Pal politics. Even if PA tried to protect them theyd be vulnerable to Hamas. It would be a disaster.

Note you asked why they had to leave - not what the legalities are.

I might add, that, as a Zionist, its good for Jews to live in the State of Israel. Its hard for foreigners without the language or connections, but for people living in the state, to depart the state, is hardly a Zionist act. Of course these folks seem to be more attached to the land of Israel than to the State of Israel. Thats a novum. There was a time, not so long ago, when the state did NOT control all the land between the Jordan and the Sea. at that time, aliyah was always defined as moving to the STATE of Israel. A diaspora Jew who desired to move to Hebron or Nablus to live under the King of Jordan, would have been considered unZionist, not to mention insane.

Don't forget that these people operate under the idea, that they won't exactly live in a peaceful fantasy land, but in a violent gaza strip. I share that assessment vis a vis what will happen when the IDF withdraws. Also, it's possible that these people would rather establish themselves as a force within a palestinian government.

"You might as well say that arabs that consider themselves palestinian in Israel are hurting their national cause by staying.

I have no difficulty with idea of a demographic swap. I would point out however, that their demographic situation is rather different from ours.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Japher
I'm with Az

Question: Why force anyone out? Why not just withdraw the claim and let those who want to stay deal with whatever will happen to them?

Fine - let Bibi and Landau, and for that matter every right wing Israeli sign an oath, that when some crazed Islamist turns one of the stay behinds into shiskebob, they will yawn, mutter about Darwin, and NOT pressure the govt to do anything about it.

Of course that WONT happen. Thats why they cant stay. I suspect thats why they want to.

[Japher]

That's seems to be the downfall of the ME... confussing martyrdom with suicide.

[Az]

Israel treats them as citizens, and Israel is stable democratic polity. Jews in Gaza would be seen as foreigners, and would be a football in internal Pal politics. Even if PA tried to protect them theyd be vulnerable to Hamas. It would be a disaster.

Note you asked why they had to leave - not what the legalities are.

If your assumption is that we're disengaging and leaving behind a million savage murderers, we shouldn't be disengaging in the first place.

I have no difficulty with idea of a demographic swap. I would point out however, that their demographic situation is rather different from ours.

Oh, doesn't matter. All they need is a foothold, to get palestine to be a "multicultural society". Arabs will of course have none of that, because it's a "two states for one and a half peoples" solution we're moving to.

[Az]

Fine - let Bibi and Landau, and for that matter every right wing Israeli sign an oath, that when some crazed Islamist turns one of the stay behinds into shiskebob, they will yawn, mutter about Darwin, and NOT pressure the govt to do anything about it.

Of course that WONT happen. Thats why they cant stay. I suspect thats why they want to.

They have plenty of NGO backers, trust me. There are people who finance these campaigns.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Az

Israel treats them as citizens, and Israel is stable democratic polity. Jews in Gaza would be seen as foreigners, and would be a football in internal Pal politics. Even if PA tried to protect them theyd be vulnerable to Hamas. It would be a disaster.

Note you asked why they had to leave - not what the legalities are.

If your assumption is that we're disengaging and leaving behind a million savage murderers, we shouldn't be disengaging in the first place.

Not a million savage murderers, but a very complex political situation, a weak political authority, and a small number of savage murderes, who have the off and on support of about one third of the population. I think its going to be a mess there for some time. I cant prove to you its a good idea - among other things i havent followed the military situation in Gaza as closely as I suspect you have, and so cant speak to the incrementatl value of bases in Gaza. I think its clear though, that having made the decision to withdraw, leaving settlers behind would be a mistake.

[Az]

Not a million savage murderers, but a very complex political situation, a weak political authority, and a small number of savage murderes, who have the off and on support of about one third of the population. I think its going to be a mess there for some time. I cant prove to you its a good idea - among other things i havent followed the military situation in Gaza as closely as I suspect you have, and so cant speak to the incrementatl value of bases in Gaza. I think its clear though, that having made the decision to withdraw, leaving settlers behind would be a mistake.

Well, I disagree.

Also, bump.

[BeBMan]

Az, since you see the disengagement rather negatively - what is in your opinion the reason behind Sharon's plan? I mean he must be aware of the criticism as well......so why is he doing it, completely other assessment of the situation (probably), outside pressure or else?

[Az]

Az, since you see the disengagement rather negatively - what is in your opinion the reason behind Sharon's plan? I mean he must be aware of the criticism as well......so why is he doing it, completely other assessment of the situation (probably), outside pressure or else?

Remove the spotlight from the fact that his corruption cases were nearing court - campaign finance scams, 'which he knew nothing about', , and the case where his son was hired as a "paid consultant" for browsing the intenet, looking for bussiness opportunities. Incidentally, Sharon attempted to use his diplomatic clout ( this was in the mid 90s), to help the bussinessman who hired his son, get building permits in one of those 3rd world countries ( Greece ), to create a megalomaniac casino and hotel complex.

And I think that plenty of the press, and the State Attorney's office are cutting him some slack for that.

[boann]

az , its never about the noble cause is it..
govt is corrupt everywhere.

why does anyone think israel leaving gaza will solve
anything.. it won't.. when they have the gaza it won't be enough.. even today in the news..

"On Tuesday, Palestinian militants marched through the streets of a town in southern Gaza flanking the settlements, and vowed the Israeli withdrawal would be the first step toward eliminating Israel"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050816/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

taken from this news report

[Sandman]

I'm fairly surprised that Az is advocating what essentially amounts to a libertarian solution; withdraw and let them fight it out, in a vicious nano-war which will destabilise the entire region.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by boann
az , its never about the noble cause is it..
govt is corrupt everywhere.

why does anyone think israel leaving gaza will solve
anything.. it won't.. when they have the gaza it won't be enough.. even today in the news..

"On Tuesday, Palestinian militants marched through the streets of a town in southern Gaza flanking the settlements, and vowed the Israeli withdrawal would be the first step toward eliminating Israel"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050816/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

taken from this news report

I dont think Mr. Sharon, or anyone who is really familiar would have expected anything different from Hamas. Unlike what some here believe, Hamas is a terrorist group, that is NOT interested in ending the occupation, but in the total destruction of Israel.

The real questions are not Hamas, but A. What will the PA do? Israel has made a unilateral withdrawl - the PA wants to move on to negotiations about the West Bank - they must show they can maintain order in Gaza, prevent it from being used as a terror base, and prevent Hamas from acting as a terrorist organization.
B. How will the rest of the world respond? Will they see and acknowledge this painful unilateral withdrawl, and push for movement by the PA that can advance the peace process?

[Az]

boann:
Yeah, but their bluff should be called by the media, and sadly, they don't in that case, for purely political reasons - they support this act, in fact so much, that they're willing to "let the corruption slide". ( There are a couple of brave souls, but they're the minority )

Sandman:

I'm fairly surprised that Az is advocating what essentially amounts to a libertarian solution; withdraw and let them fight it out, in a vicious nano-war which will destabilise the entire region.

Yeah, well, even libertarians are right, twice a day.
It's just as "destabilizing" as taking them out- You thing that a mini-war of Israel retaking the strip circa mid-2006 is much better? The fighting, if such will be, will be shortlived. You won't have a protracted conflict like this will happen now - It will be a major assault wave by Hamas, that will have to act to prove a point, that will be undoubtably broken - because they can't fight for ****. Then, a couple of clashes, perhaps a settler+sympathizer counterattack, and a pacification of the strip will be achieved.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'm fairly surprised that Az is advocating what essentially amounts to a libertarian solution; withdraw and let them fight it out, in a vicious nano-war which will destabilise the entire region.

so sandy, what do you and your pals in the UK left think? WILL you urge your govt to press the PA to act against Hamas? Will you support your govt if it goes easier on Israel in the next few month(note - im not asking for a rehash of the whole ME argument, merely a sense of the reaction to THIS act)


and bebro, since youre reading here, how is this playing in Germany?