Skyscrapers in London

[Az]

You know, with people always commenting about how this and that skyscraper is ugly, I dont think I've ever said the same on any skyscraper? They're all pretty. Is there something wrong with me?

Dude, 2 words: toyota tower ( not really a skyscraper, though. just a tall building)


Btw, Minneapolis skyline

[Provost Harrison]

At the end of the day, it is still down to people's opinions eh?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
At the end of the day, it is still down to people's opinions eh?

You lose.

[Provost Harrison]

No. On the one hand you have the architects and then there is a process of consultation. And then you get English Heritage on the other end of the spectrum being utter pains in the backside who have a phobia about anything that isn't built of mud. At least they are being told to shut up more nowadays. But at the end of the day your view of what is aesthetically pleasing is completely different to mine because in reality they are completely arbitrary. But you are arrogant enough to claim your view is better. How?

[MikeH]

He's saying his view is based on better information.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
No. On the one hand you have the architects and then there is a process of consultation. And then you get English Heritage on the other end of the spectrum being utter pains in the backside who have a phobia about anything that isn't built of mud.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.


English Heritage also protects 20th Century listed buildings, dummy.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.


English Heritage also protects 20th Century listed buildings, dummy.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/?search_word=&inTitles=on&terms=any&catId%5B1%5D%5B%5D=002002009&show=nav.8645&contentType=conProperty&submit=Search

Funny, I only find really old ones. Perhaps they should stick to those and keep their nose out.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison

Funny, I only find really old ones. Perhaps they should stick to those and keep their nose out.

Perhaps you should keep your nose in and head down, and start learning, before mouthing off on subjects you're clearly misinformed or under-informed about.

Today (23 November) the Public Inquiry convened by the Deputy Prime Minister opens into the ~{!.~}Greenside~{!/~} case. The Inquiry will consider the applications by Mr D. Beadle (1) for consent to demolish ~{!.~}Greenside~{!/~} at Chestnut Avenue, Wentworth, Virginia Water, Surrey, and (2) to build a replacement house. The applications were ~{!.~}called-in~{!/~} by the Deputy Prime Minister for his decision.

The Inquiry will be held at the Civic Centre, Addlestone, Surrey. It is expected to last two weeks.

Both The Twentieth Century Society and ENGLISH HERITAGE will be presenting evidence in opposition to Mr Beadle~{!/~}s applications. The Twentieth Century Society~{!/~}s campaign has received tremendous support from the National Committee of Amenity Societies; and from numerous other concerned organisations and individual members of the public.

~{!0~}Greenside was an important example of British twentieth century architecture. Although the building cannot now be saved (it was demolished by Mr Beadle in November 2003), there are still critical issues at stake which will be of vital importance for the future protection and conservation of our architectural heritage.~{!1~}
Gavin Stamp (Chairman of The Twentieth Century Society)

The Twentieth Century Society will be represented at the Inquiry by Mr John Dagg of Counsel. He is instructed by Joseph Mirwitch, the Society~{!/~}s Honorary Solicitor. The expert witnesses who will be giving evidence in support of the Society~{!/~}s case are: Alan Powers (architectural historian & critic); John Allan (architect); Stuart Tappin (structural engineer); and Malcolm Judd (chartered surveyor and town planner).

http://www.c20society.org.uk/docs/press/041123_greenside.html

What is Listing?

To be listed, a building must be of architectural or historical importance. It need not necessarily be by a famous architect; it could also be listed as an example of stylistic, social or technical innovation, or being associated with a significant historical event. In England and Wales, there are three grades of listing: Grade I buildings are those of exceptional interest, Grade II* are particularly important buildings of more than special interest, Grade II are of special interest, warranting every effort to preserve them.

For details of the listing systems in Scotland and Northern Ireland, please contact Historic Scotland or The Environment and Heritage Service.

Who is responsible for listing?

Administration of the listing system in England has been transferred from the Department of Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) to English Heritage with effect from 1 April 2005. English Heritage will make an assessment of the building against set criteria, and a recommendation to list, de-list or amend the grade will be made to the Secretary of State at DCMS. The Secretary of State will still make the final decision about which buildings should be listed or de-listed.

How old must a building be to be listed?

Any building over TEN years old may be listed. While the majority of surviving buildings from before 1800 are listed, the criteria for listing later buildings become stricter as the date of the building becomes more recent. Buildings less than 30 years old (from the start date of construction) are not normally listed unless they are under threat of demolition or alteration and are found "outstanding" (Grade I or II*).

http://www.c20society.org.uk/docs/research/listing.html

English Heritage
A.6 English Heritage was established under section 32 of the National Heritage Act 1983. Its general duties under the Act are:-

a. to secure the preservation of ancient monuments and historic buildings situated in England;

b. to promote the preservation and enhancement of the character and appearance of conservation areas situated in England;

c. to promote the public's enjoyment of, and advance their knowledge of, ancient monuments and historic buildings situated in England and their preservation.

A.7 English Heritage's specific functions involve giving advice in relation to ancient monuments, historic buildings and conservation areas situated in England, including advice to the Secretary of State on the inclusion of buildings in the statutory list of buildings of special architectural or historic interest and the scheduling of ancient monuments; it may make grants and loans in relation to historic buildings, land and gardens, conservation areas, and ancient monuments, and in respect of archaeological investigation. It also compiles registers of parks and gardens of special historic interest, and of historic battlefields, and sponsors surveys of listed buildings at risk.

A.8 With the consent of the Secretary of State, English Heritage may acquire historic buildings, land or gardens, and acquire or become the guardian of ancient monuments. It manages about 400 sites and monuments on behalf of the Secretary of State.

A.9 English Heritage gives advice to local planning authorities on certain categories of listed building consent application which have to be notified to English Heritage, and similarly advises both Secretaries of State on planning and listed building consent applications and appeals and on other matters generally affecting the historic environment.

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_planning/documents/page/odpm_plan_606900-10.hcsp

The military estate is not exempt from the interests of historians studying the architectural styles of the TWENTIETH century. To the contrary: English Heritage have been busily progressing their Aviation Thematic Study, whilst the Royal Commission for Historic Monuments in England have recently completed an appraisal of Cold War sites.

http://www.defence-estates.mod.uk/conservation_enviro/sanctuary/sanctuary_issue28/heritage.htm

And finally Esther:

showpiece of early TWENTIETH century design with a fascinating history. Discover the only English ART DECO house open to the public, built on a site of great antiquity and joined to a medieval hall. Commissioned by Stephen and Virginia Courtauld and completed in 1936, the house was filled with the latest all-electric gadgets, including audio system, centralised vacuum cleaner and under-floor heating. The exteriors boast fine sculptures by artists little known today (Alfred Hardiman and Gilbert Ledward), but whose works can be seen all over London.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/conProperty.103

Oh, and if that's too old and too much like wattle and daub for you try these:

At the end of 1998, the largest batch of listings of Modern Movement public housing to date included Trevelyan and Sulkin Houses in Bethnal Green (seven storey cluster blocks); the Roehampton Estates of Altons East and West, with their respective slab and point blocks; Trellick Tower in North Kensington; the long vary-storied slabs of the Park Hill Estate in Sheffield; and Lillington Gardens in Pimlico.

http://www.ihbc.org.uk/context_archive/65/slabs/buckingham.html

Trellick Tower- built 1968-1972.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Perhaps you should keep your nose in and head down, and start learning, before mouthing off on subjects you're clearly misinformed or under-informed about.

Perhaps you should learn to be a less condescending twit. All I've seen you do is rehash stuff from Google.

And as for Trellick Tower, I consider it, like most of the towerblocks from that era, to be ugly as sin and should be pulled down. But as I've said, it's all about opinions. No amount of your Google-bashing is going to change my mind

[Provost Harrison]

So Molly, is that all you can do? Copy-and-paste a few websites? Doesn't really make for a debate does it...looks to me that you just look for whatever is cool at the time and copy it wholesale. You have no thoughts of your own nor originality.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
So Molly, is that all you can do? Copy-and-paste a few websites? Doesn't really make for a debate does it...looks to me that you just look for whatever is cool at the time and copy it wholesale. You have no thoughts of your own nor originality.

As opposed to what ? 'Informed' debate such as this:

And then you get English Heritage on the other end of the spectrum being utter pains in the backside who have a phobia about anything that isn't built of mud.

You know molly, you're a snob of the worst kind

Of course, English Heritage are kicking up a fuss about these obscuring the London skyline, but I think they are a bunch of fuddy-duddy Luddite tw@ts

I'm not reading some 100-odd page pdf, get real!

The thing is, you've got to be a bit more rational. (!!!)

I certainly don't think Docklands is anything like as bad as you make out and make for a pretty nice view from Greenwich. But I can imagine you Prince Charles type won't be happy unlessevery new building is clad in Wedgewood and thatched.

Oh bloke with a bird's name, don't be so utterly pretentious and arrogant. If you don't agree with me, say so. These issues are so subjective anyway, I just happen to think you're speaking out of your arse.

Of course I don't work in a planning department, I have a proper job...

I was of course responding to your wholesale ignorance about what English Heritage is, and what it does.

...you just look for whatever is cool at the time and copy it wholesale. You have no thoughts of your own nor originality.

Well if they're thoughts like these:

I certainly don't think Docklands is anything like as bad as you make out and make for a pretty nice view from Greenwich.

I don't want to have them.

Notice that bit of architectural vocabulary, 'nice'.

Speaks volumes about the rhythm of building facades, or the spacing of buildings in an historic streetscape, doesn't it ?


So of course if I actually like a building, say, Goldfinger's 'Trellick Tower', and post a picture of it, it really must be because I just

have no thoughts of your own nor originality.

I mean it couldn't be because I've been to Goldfinger's house, or the Balfron Tower, or enjoy Twentieth Century modernist works like the Penguin Pool at London Zoo, and the work of Zaha Hadid and Tecton and Lubetkin, Powell and Moya and Grimshaw ?


I'm so sorry for you. I had thought someone with a background in science could structure an argument better than that.

[Provost Harrison]

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison

How terribly lame of you.

[MikeH]

I think that's Molly 1 - 0 Provost

[Cort Haus]

One of the best views of the London skyline, skyscrapers or no, is from Parliament Hill on Hampstead Heath. Trouble is, half the view is obstructed by a clump of trees. Am I the only person who would like to, quite frankly, chop these trees down so we can see the view properly?

There are plenty of other trees on the heath and I daresay homes could be found for the weevils and spiders or whatever lives there, but I expect my call to allow the full glory of London to be seen would be met with horror and outrage.

Comments?

PS - The Gherkin ROCKS. Best building in the square mile since St Pauls! (speaking as an amateur consumer of architecture) I'll try and find my pictures of it ...