New Zealand election thread

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Agathon
Oh and Winston Peters is the shame of New Zealand politics.

It seems that NZ has got their own Mogens Glistrup - and beware, his party will problably be influetial in 10-20 years. Maybe it will be a releaf to some - MG has served several sentences because of his views and are today considered a joke by most danes - wish you the same luck

Afterscript (some experts in english will probably correct me) : despite MG's rediciously views, one must reluctantly give him that credit that he started a debate that made "those never heard of" both visible and more important, participitants in the debate.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Stefu
New Zealand is like a reminder of how much Australia is like America

I mean, Australia's even got it's own little Canada - that's adorable!

[joncha]

Stefu

[Agathon]

Re: Re: Re: New Zealand election thread

Originally posted by Caligastia

Specifically, which promises are you referring to?

The Treaty stuff. Britain signed it and gave them and their descendants those rights. I could not care less if you think that it is unfair or whatever, that is what was signed up for.

Here in Ontario there are special Catholic schools. It would be nice if we could be rid of them, but IIRC a previous government made a compact with the church for their establishment. You can't just go back on promises that you make to people.

If you want to negotiate a new Treaty that removes the portions that offend you, then organize and invite Maori representatives to the table. You'll have to persuade them to give up their current rights. If you want to ignore them and just push it through, then be prepared for years of violent protests that would upset the relative racial harmony New Zealand enjoys.

If you want to remove Maori rights, then what is the objection to removing inheritance rights to pakeha owned family farms that have existed for 150 years? These rights go all the way back to the same sets of documents that give Maori rights.

They are treated differently under the law. I believe in equality under the law.

This is a sophistical argument beloved of the right. Everyone believes in equality under the law, but people have different ideas about what it should be equality of. In New Zealand, women are allowed free mammograms and smear tests. Is it some stain upon egalitarianism that men are not allowed these? Similarly, people who have made contracts are allowed certain rights that others do not have. Is there anything wrong with that? Moreover, people in Auckland have much more fascist regulations about waste disposal than people in Taupo. Is there anything wrong with that?

In all these cases people are allowed to be treated differently because it serves some overall good. The same goes for Maori specific legislation. If it is discovered that Maori people are suffering far more than everyone else from some disease, then it is right and proper of the health department to spend money on an awareness campaign directed specifically at Maori. There's nothing wrong with that.

Similarly, Maori people negotiated certain rights when they agreed to allow Great Britain sovereign rule over the Dominion of New Zealand. They were given exactly the same rights as us, plus a few minor things (like fishing rights and so on) that they wanted and got the Poms to agree on. We don't have any legal rights without that document, because it is the founding document of New Zealand. If you think this is nothing, ask an older Australian Aborigine about what it is like to have no legal rights as a citizen.

There's nothing wrong with public funding of Maori broadcasting either. We fund regular public broadcasting because it serves the needs of preserving New Zealand culture. What's so different about Maori culture. It is a vibrant and interesting culture and will die if New Zealand does nothing about it because it doesn't exist anywhere else.

If you really want to be picky about rights. Then how about returning every single hectare of land that was illegally obtained from Maori (and it was illegal, they had full property rights recognised by our own laws)? Don't you think it is manifestly unequal that Maori property rights have been and continue to be trampled on by the Tangata Tiriti (i.e. us)?

Well, apart from a few radical loons, most Maori have agreed to let most of that slide. This means that we need to return the favour and let them have the occasional thing without being childish about it.

What's even more galling is that Maori are for the most part extremely generous with their own property. Around Taupo, where I am from, a lot of Maori land is basically public land since they let anyone use it for nothing. They own the lake bed and don't charge an arm and a leg for fishing licenses either (they're dear, but I know they could get a lot more). When I looked out my window at home I could see the volcanoes of the Tongariro National Park. Tuwharetoa gave that to New Zealand. Sure, they are nice mountains, but that underestimates the value of the gift. Those mountains mean everything to Tuwharetoa – they are very spiritually important to them. It was a kingly gift and don''t you forget it.

And have you ever noticed that if a Maori is eating and you have no food, they will almost always offer you some? People like you forget about all the good things and customs Maori bring to New Zealand.

You suck man.

[BlackCat]

@Agathon : I might be wrong, but aren't you supposed to be a socialist ? I guess that you are - your postings indicate it to some degree - though, you claim :

You can't just go back on promises that you make to people.

How will you acknowledge the current promises that are made to people under the current government after your revolution ?

[FrostyBoy]

Helen Clarke should stay in, she is a good leader and knows what she is doing.

National has a history of screwing NZ up, then Labour have to come back and clean up the mess.

[Agathon]

And another thing. Next time you are in New Zealand, go have a look at somewhere like the Te Arawa miltary museum in Rotorua. It's full of the names of Maori boys who went overseas to fight for an Empire which had treated them pretty shabbily. They earned a fearsome reputation and lot of them died doing it. Maori people have never failed to step up to the plate when asked. Why do you feel the need to bash these people?

[BlackCat]

Just to be secure - I guess that you are not refereing to me with this :

* Why do you feel the need to bash these people?

[chequita guevara]

Go Labour!

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: Re: New Zealand election thread

Originally posted by ravagon
A government reneging on election promises???

Treaties, actually.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BlackCat
How will you acknowledge the current promises that are made to people under the current government after your revolution?

It depends. Everything will be decided on a case by case basis.

[Flip McWho]

Aye Labour/Greens coalition would be ideal.

National sucks ass. Brash is the biggest idiot ever. Sure he could do economics all good when he was in the reserve bank but he's the biggest amature politician. National started off with some momentum but they're starting to lose ground now. Labour's edging into the lead again.

Labour has pretty much brought the student vote with promising to stop the interest on student loans. And with another 4 pledges to go I very much doubt if national will win. Labour and Helen seems like the best choice. The only ones that seem to like national are the ones that have problems with the Maori and no doubt don't like the fact that woman have four or five of the top positions in our country.

Act is dead, if they get in i'll be very surprised. They went downhill and haven't stopped since prebble stepped down.

United Future will probably be back to annoy the heck out of everyone.

Progessives will at the most ride in again on Andertons coat tails, to the unfortunate of all of NZ.

Greens will still be around and I'm hoping the coalition partner.

NZ First will be in and quite possibly the kingmaker again.

The Destiny Church party well is a laugh.

The Maori party will win most if not all the maori seats but I doubt they'll influence events to much.

And National will probably go downhill once the people realise how full of it they are over there tax cuts promises, which they haven't even told us. Of course a lot of people if they lose faith in national will probably vote for NZ First.

Its shaping up to be kinda interesting really.


Also, not all the land was illegally taken. Some of it was brought for a few muskets and some blankets.

[Flip McWho]

Further:

National seems to be trying to ride in on the whole tax cut thing. It will be interesting when his policy on the whole tax thing comes out a month before the election. He stole most of his elderly policies straight from NZ First. He's flip flopping worse than anyone else on his nuclear stance, first it was be gone by lunchtime, then it was referendum followed by silence. Basically the tax cuts that national are promising is either gonna make or break that party, and by make I mean give them a shot, not guarantee them victory. It seems that most people want $30-$50 in cuts before they'll even care, anything less and national will go bye bye. I very much do hope that national goes right down in this election. NZ First is better, at least Winnie is entertaining.

Labour has well built a pretty solid country for the previous two terms that they've been in, it's hard to deny that much isn't better off, except maybe NZCEA. So far they've pledged to give rates rebates for the elderly, get 5000 more apprenticeships and stop interest on student loans. Thats pretty solid stuff there and they've got another 4 to go. Another one is being announced this week and I've read rumours its focusing on the Treaty somewhere, I've heard making a definite date for claims to be in by and resolved. Should be interesting.

[FrostyBoy]

I love Helen Clarke,

Maori protestors: "The Foreshore and Seabed is OURS!"
Helen: "No. It's everyone's"

Do not argue with a woman.

Flip: Don't talk down on the Progressives, Anderton is leading that one, and he's 2nd best to Helen, a down to earth, sensible leader who gave the kiwi's Kiwibank.

The Greens are good for the land but bad for the people.

Act, UF, NZF and Destiny Church are just there as an example of what not to do. They are all both useless and useful at the same time.

Maori Party I don't know much about, it must be a relatively new party I take it? Probably formed after the Foreshore and Seabed debate? Whatever the case, Helen will smack sense into anyone who thinks illogically.

So as always, a Labour/Greens/Progressives coalition is an inarguable force.

While I think NZ's government would be listed as one of the worlds most stable, truthful with great leadership. I still think some lessons from Lee Kuan Yew is neccessary.


BTW, is the voting over? I haven't voted yet! (Am in Singapore)

[FrostyBoy]

Flip: Who is NZCEA?

I have a $15,000 student loan, I'd love to see that wiped; are they talking about wiping the current loans or is this wiping out loans for students in the future?

The problem with National is that many NZ'ers think that National is actually a functioning party. Disgrace the name before its too late!

Oh, I know Nationals tax cut plan. First they will raise the tax by 10%, then cut it by 1% the next day.