US War of Independence

[KrazyHorse]

We've already got the banks and Hollywood. Next come the networks and newspapers...

[Sikander]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Good thing too. Next time we burn New York and LA, on top of Washington.

I thought you were trying to dissuade us?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe


Well mate,

This is the Colony that rebelled against the masters in Britain- they showed that both Monarchy and subserviant Goverment could be defeated.

At the very least, they gave us British hope during this war- they (the Yanks) sadly now portray all British as "government" and abusers of American colonists, and abuse the reality of it by doing so. Most agititors were British, not Colonial American British for good reason, yet this seems to be getting forgotten (like it was ever heard).

I once took an entire course on the political history of England during that era - stretching from George III's reign through George IV's. I'm aware of the powerful effect that the American Revolution had upon British politics in the late 18th century. As the first truly British Hanoverian he had hoped to recover the powers theoretically due to the king, but in the end royal power continued to decline. I wonder though if George III's illness and George IV's antics wouldn't have eventually had the same effect.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe


Hi mate,

I don't believe that, In the British Isles alone we had over 80,000 miles, combine that with Germany and France alone, let alone India etc- nah, don't believe it.

You have a strange view on Germany, half a century later they are still democratic, although they were the only nation to see the Railway revolution in Britain, and, unlike the rest of the world, then design the entire railway system around getting troops to the border-fast.

What us stupid Europeans did then know's no bounds- we're alright now, I promise.

Toby

I got that from a book on the building of the transcontinental railroad. I'm quite sure that the mileage total comparison stat was transitory, as the U.S. mileage totals declined steadily after the railroad boom for many decades, and of course the rest of the world built a hell of a lot of rail during that same time frame. But it's important to note that the U.S. lagged behing Britain in railroads by only a decade or so early on, and we are a much larger country. During the railroad boom we built an immense amount of track and served even tiny populations and extractive industries over long distances that in the long run were untenable economically (once the government quit backing railroad bonds).

A local example is instructive. After the Civil War the world's (then) highest railroad (called The Swizerland Trail) was built from Boulder to Puzzler, Ward and Nederland, which were mining boom towns. The total population of all of these towns was well less than 5000 people. The mileage of this line was about 40 miles and it offered twice daily service. And this was in the Wild West, before Colorado was even a state and while the Indian wars were raging nearby. The eastern half of the country of course was fairly well served by rail before the Civil War, and an immense amount of track mileage was built during the war to supply the Union army.

As for my "strange view of Germany", I think it may be your view of my view that is strange. I merely was pointing out that the Germans made a grave mistake by declaring war on us in WW2 when they were already at war with two of the world's preemininent industrial powers. For instance both Britain and the Soviet Union built more aircraft than the Germans did during WW2. The U.S. built more aircraft than Britain and the Soviet Union combined during the war. A grave mistake by the Germans, which is surprising considering that the U.S. had been the world's leading industrial power in many categories for half a century by then and had shown an ability even during its short part in WW1 to produce an impressive amount of war material.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Sikander


I merely was pointing out that the Germans made a grave mistake by declaring war on us in WW2 when they were already at war with two of the world's preemininent industrial powers.

That and not persuading the Japanese to break their neutrality with Soviet Russia. Since the Germans couldn't reach the United States with their air force or infantry, it was a fairly egregious error.


Like cutting off Mongol ambassadors' heads...

[Adam Smith]

"...already by the Civil War [American] mileage exceeded taht of railroads in the UK, France, and German states combined."
J. R. T. Hughes, American Economic History, p. 165.

HERE are some international statisitcs over time, though I cannot vouch for the source. (Scroll about half way down the page).

[Toby Rowe]

Hi Sikander,

Yep, the vast UK network also used to supply little villages- the farmers brought the wares to them, to be shipped into the towns and cities. British railways were destroyed in the '20's when the Government decided to set freight rates for lorries (truckers), and set against the railways.

Ever since Rudolf in Germany liberated the world, Britain has supported him, not the railway, I guess the US was the same, then came aircraft....

About the strange aspect- I thought it odd that the US wouldn't join Britain, Canada etc in fighting the other crazy dictactor sooner (stalin was the other we all tumbled into bed with), but no, Japan declared war upon you via Pearl harbour, yet you guys STILL wouldn't declare war on Hitler, so he did it for you.

The US joined the pathetic WW1, not because of, but despite of, the simple fact the US Industry grew mighty on the dead of all 3 nations in that pointless war, once the US joined, the influx of men of several age groups tipped the balance, the big three only had each 18 year old left to slaughter by 1917.

Try losing 60,000 British men in one single day to dead or wounded...(during the Somme offensive), try coping with upper-class officers, whose only reason of being an officer was the class they were born into.

Phew, back to Railways: I think you lot imported a train driver (engineer to you lot), plus a loco in 1832, as you used both him and machine for industry (wasn't it built for a coal mine), that puts you 50 years behind Threvick at least- didn't he build steam engines for wooden rails in 1730-ish?[edit] (I don't know!)

One thing Sikander before the reply you want to roast me over; When the US Government built the Switzerland line you described above- for what was the purpose? (future) Industry, Settlement, service or what?

Back to WWII- Germany (rather Hitler) declared war on the US due to Japanese pressure, how the Japanese ever thought they could ever defeat the US has always puzzled me- the US Industrial capacity was large from WWI, after supplying Britain since 1939 she was very important, not least as a significant portion of her industrial output was already tooled-up and producing military equipment for us in Britain.

By this point, the 14th Army had stopped Japan at the Indian border and began the long fight back through Burma, and they won more battles than any other allied army under General Slim, through jungle and until VJ day, just as British forces were being gathered for the final assault on Japan, alongside the US troops.

Dr Strangelove,

The US war of independence, civil war that it really was, must have shown all who could read, and thus educate us masses by dint- eventually. Alas most didn't read, and our freedom was only to arrive much later- after WWI to be exact- how sad was that? It sowed a seed for us Brit's that really wasn't reaped.

We took more inspiration from the French revolution, even Government finally got nervous- they could dismiss soldier's anger at fighting "brothers" in the US war as soldiers were **** in all the publics' eye, sailors weren't,
dismissing interest was harder and I think the comedic, sartorical "Punch" magazine actually effected opinion- Unless it's latest law suite has sunk it, it is still printed- you don't r-e-a-lly need to read to appreciate the cover picture.

Blimey, rambled again!

Toby

[Toby Rowe]

Adam Smith (Good choice)

Alas, I take little as fact if written by a US writer these days- I'd rather a European or Canadian perspective- Whilst the US has the "God loves America" period it has,
once this period is over, I'll read whatever you have.

Before you get angry, I've seen more than 5 historical inaccuracies the BBC have made this year, so I don't trust accuracy too much in Britain right now. Nah! Give me the Danish, Canadian, Swedish or Italian view et al.

Toby :-)