US War of Independence

[Imran Siddiqui]

See... there it is again!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by techumseh
We never said you didn't have some legitmate grievences, only that you also lusted after Canada!

We've also had some interesting times. Right after the end of your civil war, there was a major movement to annex Canada (you had that big Union army with nothing much for it to do). One of the big American moves was the purchase of Alaska from Russia (1866), attempting to 'flank' British North America. Armed raids on Canadian territory by the 'Fenians', Irish-American terrorists who were largely Union veterans, were winked at by American authorities.

The Canadian response was Confederation (1867), the unification of the colonies of Upper and Lower Canada, the maritime colonies and British Columbia, and the formation of a Canadian army. A trans-continental railway was begun in order to settle the western prairies ahead of American settlers. A large scale immigration program was implemented. These measures succeded in preventing a new annexationist war by the Americans.

IIRC there actually were raids on US territory launched from Canada undertaken via Confederate raiders during the American Civil War.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by notyoueither
That would be why you invaded, several times, yes?

The second time was a "hot pursuit".

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It's frightening how many conspiracy "annexation of Canada" theories that our neighbors to the North have .

It's frightening how little our neighbors to the South know about their own history, let alone that of their nearest neighbor.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Normandy. We're even

Hardly. I seem to recall quite a few other nations involved in those amphibious landings.


And how come it took so long for the Yanks to get there, hmm ?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
The colonials had a nasty habit of offering generous land grants in exchange for surrender to the German mercenraies, many of whom were actually abducted from neighboring German principalities. There are tales of German troops charging Yankee lines, throwing down their guns, taking off their uniforms, then after a brief almost symbolic period of imprisonment, being shoiwn to some nice pristine American land for them to farm. There are places in rural Virginia near where some of revolutionary POW camps were located where you'd be hard pressed to find a non-German name on a mail box. Likewise, while French troops were present at Yorktown, they were not the majority of Washington's troops.

I trace my lineage back to such a hessian soldier. Seems he was one of the most unlucky sods ever.

Initially impressed into the Hessian army he served and was either captured or saw the light. After being captured and serving as a POW, after a prisoner exchange he was to be shipped back to Prussia. Seems the ship immediately hit bad weather and promptly shipwrecked whereupon he was immediately recaptured and spent the rest of his days during the revolutionary war in POW camp.
(if it weren't for bad luck.....)

After the war at the ripe age of 50's he did a stint as an indentured servant gaining his freedom by the time he reached 60. He settled down in his 60's in PA farming a small tract of land. Eventually he married and had kids. Funny I remember reading his will. Something to the effect that he left all his material possessions to his wife on the condition that she never remarry. If she did remarry she would get naught.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It's frightening how many conspiracy "annexation of Canada" theories that our neighbors to the North have .

Annexation of Canada was a war aim of the war of 1812, just not a primary or even secondary one. More of a, nice to have if we can get it. It certainly wasn't the overriding consideration of the war, as our Canuck cousins seems to think it was. I'm more than happy to point the imperialist finger at my country, but this isn't one of those cases.

Even today, the State Department still maintains plans for the annexation of parts of Canada, should the Confederation break up (basically, BC and Alberta).

As for what to do with that big Union army, they forget that it had a job . . . occupying the South and suppressing the 2nd insurrection from 1866-67. The South remained occupied until 1876, and then increasing worker militency and a deal with the Democrats lead to the army being pulled out of the South and inserted near major industrial centers, as well as out West to fight the Indian Wars.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


After the Rev War ended in 1783, the British neglected to withdraw a number of their troops from the frontier and along the Great Lakes... within US territory that is. The British also incited many of the native groups of the area against the US. This was one of the grievances the US had that led to the war

Gee you'ld think with a Poly name like Tecumseh he would have known.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Annexation of Canada was a war aim of the war of 1812, just not a primary or even secondary one. More of a, nice to have if we can get it.

Even today, the State Department still maintains plans for the annexation of parts of Canada, should the Confederation break up (basically, BC and Alberta).

It never made the reasons the Senate authorized war. If a war aim it waaaay down the list compared to the greivances listed.

[chequita guevara]

I DanS'd ya.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


The second time was a "hot pursuit".

You mean this time?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS
As far as I have been taught, at the beginning of the war, the factions were fairly evenly split royalist, neutral, and rebel. .

thats based on a quote from a letter of John Adams. However the quote is wrong - Adams was referring to the American view of the FRENCH revolution - one third supported it, one third opposed, the rest were neutral.

If you look region by region, you see the following

New England - overwhelmingly Patriot, except for a few wealthy Anglicans.

New York - Dutch, historically mistrustful of New England, heavily loyalist. More patriot sentiment on eastern Long Island (settled from New England) and in the Schoharie Valley.

New Jersey - wavered - went back on forth during the war depending on which army was there. New Englanders around Newark generally patriot, Dutch generally loyalist, quakers mixed.

Pennsylvania - lots of quakers who didnt want anything to do with war. Others who supported the patriot cause, as did most of the Scotch Irish in SW Pa. Germans mixed?

Maryland - reluctance to support patriot cause (Among Catholic elite) but supplied some of the best units to Continental army. Predominantly patriot.

Delaware - heavy loyalist sentiment, but heavy patriot support, similar to Maryland.

Virginia - overwhelmingly patriot, both low country planters, and hill country small farmers (followers of Jefferson and P. Henry) Small loyalist grouping left early in the war.

North Carolina - Scots highlanders, probably the largest and most important loyalist community in America. Were balanced by patriot Scots Irish - battles between patriot and loyalist militias tended to end in draws.

South Carolina - considerable loyalist minority, but hill county strongly patriot, and significant patriot sentiment in the low country (Frances Marion, et al)

Georgia - heavily loyalist.


All in all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. During the revolution, there was no area that stayed in Tory control absent the presence of British regulars. Any areas where there were neither Continental Army or British Army troops, and control was contested between local patriot and tory militias, always (AFAIK) came under patriot control - even Georgia and North Carolina. This would indicate that the loyalists were rather lesser in number than the patriots.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by notyoueither

When the United States declared war on Great Britain in 1812, Upper Canada had a population of nearly 100,000, four-fifths of whom were American-born.

That's 80,000 American UELs in Upper Canada (now Ontario). Lower Canada (Quebec) would have been much larger, so would have been Nova Scotia. There was also New Brunswick which would have been fairly small, but also full of UELs.

Youre assuming every American born person in upper canada in 1812 was a UEL. IIUC, there was a significant migration into upper canada from Upstate New York that was NOT loyalist. Historically people migrated due west for land - Virginians into Kentucky, Pennsylvanians into Ohio, and New Englanders into upstate New York - the same folks kept heading west for land, across the Niagra frontier. Similarly some Canadians from lower Ontario later headed west into Michigan, in pursuit of land with similar climate and farming qualities.

[lord of the mark]

as for US focus on Canada, youve to remember that from the US point of view it WASNT Canada - it was Britsh North America, and even after confederation was part of the British Empire. Which just happened to be the number one power on the face of the earth, for most of the period from 1814 to the 1880's at least. Depending on the state of US-British relations, Canada was a distinct strategic threat.

[Toby Rowe]

Originally posted by BlackCat


I can't give you any view that may make sense because I haven't digged into the subject - my newest "source" is the movie "The patriot" and I know that it is hopelessly unreliable - I guess that even americans accept this

If you really want an opinion, I'll say that it's mainly a question of control - brits couldn't control the area so they lost it - actually, if control was easier, then you would have been danish now.

Maybe I should put a plug in the redwine bottle

Heh, I love it!!

Well we were under dane-law for quite sometime......

Trust me to post a question, then go away the next day- I'm only back due to an injury- silly me.

Paine is mentioned, he was British, amongst many famous people of the founding of the USA, the British in modern America couldn't get what they wanted in the UK, they might get freedom in what WOULD become the US, but the UK pamphleteers were just as active in support of the war against the King- they were becoming what WE dreamed of back home, is how I see it.

The British soldiers sent by the mad king were apparently reluctant to fire upon anyone, as they viewed them as brothers who had freedom.
The British soldier at the time was viewed very badly back in Britain, amongst all segments of society, and this attitude remained until 1815.

Time to read the rest of the posts!

Toby