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  • Make no mistake, we won the War of 1812. We forced Britain to respect us as a nation, which is what the war was about. Certainly we would have annexed Canada had we conquered it. That doesn't mean it was a central war aim.

    As for there somehow being some kind of legitmiate reason for Britain to be arming and supplying natives in the U.S. (before the war), I would note the great animosity that Brits have today about private U.S. citizens funding the IRA. Britain had no business being allied to natives in another country's territory, regardless of how we treated them (which was despicable, don't get me wrong). Britain had no business occupying the Ohio Valley and points north. Do you think Britain would have turned a blind eye to the U.S. occupying Scotland during peacetime?

    As to Florida, the Spanish had barely any presence there, maybe a few hundred colonists scattered about the state. They weren't even in control of the whole territory, as Amelia Island, on the border between Georgia and Florida, was occupied by Mexico!!! (Only place in the U.S. to have flown under the flags of eight different countries).
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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    • At the time that the US bought Florida it was under British control I beleive. The place simply wasn't worth anything after the Fountain of Youth scam went bust.
      "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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      • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
        As for there somehow being some kind of legitmiate reason for Britain to be arming and supplying natives in the U.S. (before the war), I would note the great animosity that Brits have today about private U.S. citizens funding the IRA. Britain had no business being allied to natives in another country's territory, regardless of how we treated them (which was despicable, don't get me wrong). Britain had no business occupying the Ohio Valley and points north. Do you think Britain would have turned a blind eye to the U.S. occupying Scotland during peacetime?
        Che, this is not one of your best - you are practically arguing that AQ should be allowed to train suicide bombers in US.
        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

        Steven Weinberg

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        • @ the Canucks who think the War of 1812 was all about annexing Canada.

          The main reasons for the war were the continuing British presence in the Ohio Vally who were also arming the natives, and the kidnapping of US sailors and forcing them to serve in the British navy. Yes, a few people wanted to take Canada, but most just wanted to force the Brits to respect our independence.

          Here you defeat your entire argument. If you could get it, you would have kept it. But the major military effort of your country WAS the capture of Canada. How you can hold that it wasn't an object of your strategy is beyond any logic or common sense. And this linking of New England secession to the annexation of Canada is just a figment of your imagination.
          What a load of BS.

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          • Originally posted by BlackCat
            Che, this is not one of your best - you are practically arguing that AQ should be allowed to train suicide bombers in US.

            ???
            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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            • Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
              At the time that the US bought Florida it was under British control I beleive.
              Nyet, tovarisch. Britain lost control of Florida with the Treaty of Paris in 1783. East and West Florida were returned to Spain. The main city, San Agustin, was repopulated with Majorcans, which is what native St. Augustiners call themselves today.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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              • Originally posted by BlackCat


                Che, this is not one of your best - you are practically arguing that AQ should be allowed to train suicide bombers in US.
                I don't get that at all. At worst, you could apply his argument today to say the U.S. had no business allying with the Northern Alliance, no matter how bad the Taliban's rule was. Of course, the are some pretty important factors that make that a poor comparison. Nowhere in his post does he claim legitimacy for training and arming an insurrection in a foreign country. In fact, unless my mind's completely boggled, his stance is the exact opposite of that.
                Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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                • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

                  Revolting against Spanish government? American military intervension was to deal with the Seminole raids on south Georgia. That intervension led to de facto US control over east Florida, but only because the Spanish couldn't afford to send any troops there to keep order. After all, they only regained control of Florida after the American Revolution (from 1763-1784 it was ruled by the British). The Spanish decided to sell it because they couldn't police it. They lacked the funds to. The exchange was for the renouncing of claims in Texas, which was closer to the Spanish hearts anyway because they could actually afford to keep troops there and assert some control.
                  Here's a nice summary from US History. com: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1129.html

                  In the early 18th century, bands of Muskogean-speaking Lower Creek migrated to Florida from Georgia. They became known as the Seminole (literally "separatists"). Floridian territory was nominally under Spanish sway; the Spanish permitted the Seminole to settle there in order to create a buffer zone between their sphere of influence and that of the British.

                  The natives occupied rich lands in northern Florida that were hungrily eyed by American settlers in adjacent Georgia, although Florida still belonged to Spain at the beginning of the 19th century. Another cause of potential conflict was the Seminole tendency to provide refuge to runaway slaves.

                  While the United States was fighting the War of 1812 with Britain, a series of violent incidents aggravated hostility between the U.S. and the Seminole.

                  The First Seminole War erupted over forays staged by U.S. authorities to recapture runaway black slaves living among Seminole bands, who stiffly resisted. In 1818, Major General Andrew Jackson was dispatched with an army of more than 3,000 soldiers to Florida to punish the Seminole. After liquidating several native settlements, then executing two British traders held for reportedly encouraging Seminole resolve, General Jackson captured the Spanish fort of Pensacola in May 1818 and deposed the government. However, he failed to snuff out Seminole opposition. Two more wars ensued (1835-1842), (1855-1858), which ultimately resulted in confiscation of the Seminole's land for white settlement and exploitation.
                  So, in other words, the Americans purchased kidnapped Blacks from Africa, transported by force to the United States, and forced them to work as slaves in the cotton fields of Georgia. Then, when they managed to escape and took refuge with the Seminole Indians in Florida you tried to force your way in to recapture them. When the Indians resisted this illegal action, you sent an army to attack the Indians and exterminated several Indian settlements.

                  This army, under American Hero and future President Andrew Jackson then went on to attack the Spanish city of Pensacola and overthrow the Spanish government of Florida. When this was completed you concluded the Fair and Equal Adams-Onis Treaty with Spain, which gave Florida to the United States, and settled the Louisiana-Texas border on terms favourable the the United States. However, the US gave up claims to Texas, which was "closer to Spanish hearts".

                  Except that 30 years later, you pulled the same settle-rebel-intervene stunt on Mexico to steal Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California from them.
                  Last edited by techumseh; August 6, 2005, 07:16.
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                  • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                    In the accounts I've read, the Ohio valley forts are not listed as a major causus belli.


                    And yet just about everyone else here sees the Ohio River Valley and its control to be a major issue involved. Hmmm...
                    Ohhh, everyone else here sees.... I guess they must be right. Let's see the citation.
                    Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

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                    • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                      Make no mistake, we won the War of 1812. We forced Britain to respect us as a nation, which is what the war was about. Certainly we would have annexed Canada had we conquered it. That doesn't mean it was a central war aim.
                      The war was about respect? Are we watching the Godfather? It was about the freedom to steal Indian lands to the west, and to annex Canada. Impressment had been largely dealt with through diplomacy, and the Orders in Council rescinded. Yet the war went on for nearly 3 years.

                      As for there somehow being some kind of legitmiate reason for Britain to be arming and supplying natives in the U.S. (before the war), I would note the great animosity that Brits have today about private U.S. citizens funding the IRA. Britain had no business being allied to natives in another country's territory, regardless of how we treated them (which was despicable, don't get me wrong). Britain had no business occupying the Ohio Valley and points north. Do you think Britain would have turned a blind eye to the U.S. occupying Scotland during peacetime?
                      I don't get you wrong. You are rationalizing the right of the United States to exterminate the Indian tribes and steal their lands. That was precisely the aim of the US in the northwest during the War of 1812.

                      As to Florida, the Spanish had barely any presence there, maybe a few hundred colonists scattered about the state. They weren't even in control of the whole territory, as Amelia Island, on the border between Georgia and Florida, was occupied by Mexico!!! (Only place in the U.S. to have flown under the flags of eight different countries).
                      See response to Imran above. The Adams-Onis Treaty merely set the stage for the extermination of the Seminole people. BTW, the justification you've presented falls far short of your usual socialist analysis.
                      Last edited by techumseh; August 6, 2005, 07:20.
                      Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

                      www.tecumseh.150m.com

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                      • dp
                        Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

                        www.tecumseh.150m.com

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                        • I've been looking, but I've yet to see forts in the Ohio valley mentioned.

                          On the other hand, try to make sense of that border...
                          through Lake Superior northward of the Isles Royal and Phelipeaux to the Long Lake; thence through the middle of said Long Lake and the water communication between it and the Lake of the Woods, to the said Lake of the Woods; thence through the said lake to the most northwesternmost point thereof, and from thence on a due west course to the river Mississippi; thence by a line to be drawn along the middle of the said river Mississippi until it shall intersect the northernmost part of the thirty-first degree of north latitude, South, by a line to be drawn due east from the determination of the line last mentioned in the latitude of thirty-one degrees of the equator, to the middle of the river Apalachicola or Catahouche; thence along the middle thereof to its junction with the Flint River, thence straight to the head of Saint Mary's River; and thence down along the middle of Saint Mary's River to the Atlantic Ocean;
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                          • Considering Detroit started the war in American hands, just how far south of the lakes were the British occupying?
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                            • Oh dear. That line would tend to put Colorado on the British side of the demarcation.

                              I am beginning to see what you mean by 'occupying' American territory.
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                              • Maybe the USA should show you now what it looks like when they REALLY want to annex Canada.

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