The death of the American labor movement

[Bosh]

And today's unions have the wrong priorities. Basically unionization only helps workers once you get a certain density in an industry, but what counts as an industry now is much bigger since it doesn't matter much if an entire industry is unionized if production can be easily moved to another country. The biggest way that unions can be effective is by gaining real power is by gaining a real stake in companies and yanking them around that way.

What they should do is:
1. Get administrative control of workers' pension funds (definatley doable, but unions have often been very very bad/corrupt at managing them in the past which really really needs to change)
2. Invest this money in companies where the union has a presence/wants a presence.
3. Use this to influence management (i.e. "don't shut down the factory, or we'll vote for the next hostile takeover offer that comes around)
4. Intelligently increase share of companies until the union/workers can take them over (something like strike -> watch the share price drop -> buy stock cheap -> stock price drops more as investers get afraid of a worker takover -> finish striking once you've finished buying)
5. Run the company effectively (worker-managed corporats have tended to be quite efficient since workers know that their jobs are on the line, but they don't tend to expand much so you don't see many of them).

But that's not going to happen any time soon

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by BlackCat
I support them wich my postings say, I just don't think that they should be involved in crime .. oups, politics.

How do you expect them to survive politically if they're not involved politically.

[DanS]

Bosh: What gives you confidence in the unions to do well with more power?

Basically, you've just listed a lot of stuff that the unions we have now aren't qualified to do and then washing your hands of the matter with an "it's not going to happen any time soon."

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


How do you expect them to survive politically if they're not involved politically.

In the old days when most union members voted for left wing parties it was reasonable that they also gave money to these parties, but today their members votes for the whole spectre of parties, and they find it rediciously that they should support a party they are against.

This hasn't weakend unions because they now concentrate on working conditions, salaries, security at workplaces etc. - things most mebers can agree upon.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by BlackCat
This hasn't weakend unions because they now concentrate on working conditions, salaries, security at workplaces etc. - things most members can agree upon.

That's true.

I was at a union strategy meetings a few weeks ago. It mainly involved how to counter California Prop 75, which is designed to strangle the collection of union dues wtih red tape.

But conservatives have also placed -- I think it's Prop. 70 -- on the ballot, a measure which would impose a waiting period for abortions for minors. Many of our members wanted the union to come out against it. However, the majority decided that abortion is not a union issue, and that taking a stand (one way or the other) would just divide our members.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by DanS
Bosh: What gives you confidence in the unions to do well with more power?

Basically, you've just listed a lot of stuff that the unions we have now aren't qualified to do and then washing your hands of the matter with an "it's not going to happen any time soon."

Well the incompetance that many Americans unions have shown in the running of their pension funds is pretty frightening. However, there's two points that're important. For the sort of thing I talked about to work you'd need a very different kind of union than what we have now and it isn't necessarily more power than unions had in America/Europe in their heyday, just a different kind of power.

Also historically, like I said, worker-run corporations have tended to be efficient. Their main problem is that they're hard to form and tend not to expand, union involvement is kind of a theoretical workaround for those problems...

All very theoretical unfortunately

[Ramo]

But what have the unions done for us lately? Let's say, in the last 60 years?

Squat.

You have a strange definition of squat.

Data from the March 2002 Current Population Survey (CPS), for example, show that unionized workers are 16.4 percentage points more likely than similar nonunion workers to be covered by an employer-provided health insurance plan, and 18.8 percentage points more likely to participate in an employer-sponsored retirement plan

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20050616ar01p1.htm#2

[Odin]

Go rebel unions. Kick Wal-mart in the ass.

Why should unions throw away money to a political party that has abandonded labor and have become Republican-Lite ever since the DLC takeover?

4. Intelligently increase share of companies until the union/workers can take them over (something like strike -> watch the share price drop -> buy stock cheap -> stock price drops more as investers get afraid of a worker takover -> finish striking once you've finished buying)

This is so evil, I love it.

[:) Smiley]

The service economy in theory can function on an agglomeration of small businesses better than a manufacturing economy can, and perhaps employee ownership is the new way, as opposed to unionization.

There are a number of emplopyee owned stores around berkeley, with a wide range of success and failure. In general these businesses are able to support their higher wages by being higher quality. For example the two best pizza places in town are employee owned. On the other hand theres this employee owned bakery that has been bordering on bankruptcy for the last couple of years because of poor business practices - for example, when sales started dropping, they decided to close at 6PM, which means commuters coming back in the evening (like me) can't get to the store before it closes anymore.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Odin
Go rebel unions. Kick Wal-mart in the ass.

Why should unions throw away money to a political party that has abandonded labor and have become Republican-Lite ever since the DLC takeover?



This is so evil, I love it.

Hostile takeovers for the REVOLUTION! Its so logical that I'm surprised I've never heard it proposed, and it should be relatively feasible with union-run pension funds.

[DanS]

You have a strange definition of squat.

By "us", I meant everybody, the vast majority of whom are non-union.

Put another way, what have they done for us lately that demonstrates that unions having political power makes sense?

[pchang]

Unions aren't supposed to benefit non-members. You might as well ask what the AARP has done for young people lately.

[DanS]

A big part of Sweeney's argument is that even though unionism is a modest force in the workplace, the union movement should strive for political influence in order to carry out its goals that impact all workers. Like moving from a 48 workweek to a 40 hour workweek 70 year ago, f.e.

So it's a fair question to ask what have the unions done for us lately.

[pchang]

Among their goals are better healthcare coverage for all and better retirement plan coverage for all. Their lack of success would seem to be an agurment in favor of them getting more political power not less (unless of course, you are against those goals).

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DanS
Like moving from a 48 workweek to a 40 hour workweek 70 year ago, f.e. So it's a fair question to ask what have the unions done for us lately.

Here in California:

The unions fought off Gov. Wilson's attempt to do away with the requirement to pay overtime for working more than 8 hours in a day. (BTW, the Governator is attempting to resurrect Wilson's vile and evil plan.)

The unions are also pushing Calif. Senate Bill 840, which will provide heathcare to all Californians.

Ever since a disgruntled Pakastani subcontractor threatened to put medical records up on the internet, unions have been fighting to keep patients' medical records in California.

Unions have been fighting off corporate attempts to privatize Social Security and public-employee pensions.