Random Game Design Question

[Velociryx]

My future wife drew that one for me...we were kicking some early prototype ideas about what the Nilroggi looked like, and this fellow was one of the rejected versions.

Rejected or not tho, I thought he made a good "Velocibeast!"

And thank ya! I'm glad you like the idea....the trick, of course, will be to see if I can come up with interesting, topically relevant abilities to offer, and try my best to make the choice as agonizing as possible (oh, and I'm also designing the tech tree such that there's no practical way, except in severely milking a single player game) to research all the techs in a single game.

That, coupled with mutually exclusive choices at each level should give me the desired effect...a game that it'll take literally scores, if not hundreds of playthrus to really feel like you've seen most everything...

-=Vel=-
PS: And we need more cowbell!

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Velociryx
PS: And we need more cowbell!

QFT

[Whoha]

you should stay as far away from randomization as possible. If you do use it though play test the hell out of it.

[Az]

I say that the key lies in separating Science and technology. That's how I've always felt, but I don't know how to impliment this...

[Velociryx]

That's it exactly, Az...and one of the difficulties I'm running into.

One of the things that comes to mind is this:

For any given technological innovation, there are any number of potential applications. In our modern world, for example, many of the technologies we take quite for granted today were, at least in their original genesis, military, or military oriented.

Seems like the trick will be to identify all possible game-related uses for any given technological innovation, and then present those possibilities as options for the player to determine exactly how to introduce the various implementations the research itself has generated. Thus, one branch of scientific research (codified as a "tech advance" in most 4x games) would have a potentially tremendous number of practical applications, falling to the player to determine how, and in what order, to bring those applications to fruition....

interesting...

-=Vel=-
PS: And I disagree 'bout the randomness thing. EU 2 is prolly one of my all time favorite computer games, and it is loaded to the gills with randomness. I see your point tho...randomness that's handed down arbitrarily feels artificial, but I think that, if implemented properly (and a big nod to EU2 for doing that very thing), it can really make the difference.

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by Guynemer


QFT

Sorry to barge in like this, but the SNL bit your avatar is from... What was the song they were recording?

[Velociryx]

Don't Fear the Reaper...

-=Vel=-

[Az]

Vel, how about the prototype model from SMAC?

[Frankychan]

I like the idea that in addition to unlocking a new general tech, you can also pick which tertiary bonus you gain. The fact that if you research, say, Gunpowder weapons, you can pick a bonus like "Magnum bullets: +1 Damage" or "Increased influence cause other nations don't have firearms: +1 in Diplomatic Trade Agreements".

Stuff like that. It would make replayability much higher, but in the same vein it could get tedious because there would be a lot of tech to research and that, in turn, would mean more tertiary bonuses to select. Maybe tech that's considered "red flag tech" would spark the bonus....that, and early tech would have the bonuses as well.

Balancing replayability with tediousness is hard, but if it is played right then it would be gaming gold.

[Velociryx]

Az...I like the prototyping model in SMAC...you thinkin' something like that might fit into the mix okay in a medieval setting? Hadn't considered it, and it'd be something fairly far off down the road, but that could be fun!

And yep...too right, Franky...I'm almost thinking I got too much of that sort of thing going on already. I think it's to the point now where it's almost gotta be along the order of what Smiley was talking about, if for no other reason than to keep it behind the scenes!

-=Vel=-

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Honestly, I think the next step in these sorts of games will be to make bonuses etc. emergent from gameplay. While we, as Civ-type people, may like playing spreadsheet games, most people don't...if a system like Fable's upgrades (where you get points to spend in certain categories based on how you've played the game thus far) were adapted to the complexity of a strategy game, that would be ideal. The next obvious step is to hide the numbers from the user...numbers are really a crutch in video games that comes from the programmer's side, not the player's side.

The problem at that point is that many players also need discrete goals to work towards...balancing the two is the tricky part.

[Az]

bonuses must emerge from game play. Your diplomatic clout, for example, should come from the fact that you have many "musketeer" units, not that you know gunpowder, etc.

[Sir Og]

Vel you should really check out MOO2. In that game your research gives you two or three practical applications. For example when you research Anti-mater Fission you can get one of three technologies: AM Bomb(ground attack weapon) , AM Drive (improved propulsion) or AM Torpedoes (space ship weapon). The nice thing is that you only get one (there is an exception for the so called creativ races, but that is not the point) of these practical applications. I did not like the fact that you could not come back and do more research to get two of the applications that a certain tech gives. All applications were available through spying or diplomatic means however.

Such a system gives you the ability to advance to the next tech but makes you take some choices on the applications of each technology that you research. Such a system should allow in my opinion the choice to spend further research on a given field in order to get all possible applications of a certain technology.
Let us say that in your siegcraft example you get the "Siege attack" application (by default or by chance). If you are not engaged in any wars you may choose to go ahead with your research and go up the tech tree or if you are engaged in a conflict you may spend more research on Siegcraft to gain the Sieage defence as well.

Of cource in such a system you should make shure that you don't end up without knowledge of "Siege defence" for example in the Space age.
I am not sure how difficult it is to implement that but as time passes and you generate more research you should get old/obsolete applications for free without explicitly focusing on them. Let us say you were happy with "Siege attack" and moved on with your reseach, than 15 techs later you receive a message: "Sir we have discovered new applications for Siegcraft. They give us improved siege defence etc."

Another interesting moment is if you are going to get a random application or chose one beforehand or get one by default. The random factor could be extremely frustrating if the different choices are not well balanced. Maybe it will be best to have it random but better techs have higher chance. This way there will be some element of surprise bu t overall you will get what you expect.

[Sir Og]

Vel you should really check out MOO2. In that game your research gives you two or three practical applications. For example when you research Anti-mater Fission you can get one of three technologies: AM Bomb(ground attack weapon) , AM Drive (improved propulsion) or AM Torpedoes (space ship weapon). The nice thing is that you only get one (there is an exception for the so called creativ races, but that is not the point) of these practical applications. I did not like the fact that you could not come back and do more research to get two of the applications that a certain tech gives. All applications were available through spying or diplomatic means however.

Such a system gives you the ability to advance to the next tech but makes you take some choices on the applications of each technology that you research. Such a system should allow in my opinion the choice to spend further research on a given field in order to get all possible applications of a certain technology.
Let us say that in your siegcraft example you get the "Siege attack" application (by default or by chance). If you are not engaged in any wars you may choose to go ahead with your research and go up the tech tree or if you are engaged in a conflict you may spend more research on Siegcraft to gain the Sieage defence as well.

Of cource in such a system you should make shure that you don't end up without knowledge of "Siege defence" for example in the Space age.
I am not sure how difficult it is to implement that but as time passes and you generate more research you should get old/obsolete applications for free without explicitly focusing on them. Let us say you were happy with "Siege attack" and moved on with your reseach, than 15 techs later you receive a message: "Sir we have discovered new applications for Siegcraft. They give us improved siege defence etc."

Another interesting moment is if you are going to get a random application or chose one beforehand or get one by default. The random factor could be extremely frustrating if the different choices are not well balanced. Maybe it will be best to have it random but better techs have higher chance. This way there will be some element of surprise bu t overall you will get what you expect.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Az
bonuses must emerge from game play. Your diplomatic clout, for example, should come from the fact that you have many "musketeer" units, not that you know gunpowder, etc.

Good point. I was thinking that if another nation knew you had the tech for making guns, they'd be scared. But if you don't have any units to back your nation up, the other country wouldn't be intimidated.


Maybe it depends on WHAT is made. If an opponent has a musketeer unit, I'd be scared...even if I outnumbered his musketeers 10-1 with say, spearmen. But if my neighbor had 1 atom bomb or something devastating like that, of course I'm going to kiss his butt.