Rugby - Hands Off White!

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Originally posted by Havak
To give you more ammunition against England RU the clubs versus country argument looks set to get very messy indeed - barbs flying everywhere last week...

I was listening to a Five Live rugby show the other night. Keith Wood seemed to be of the view that it's now too late to change the contracting system. Five years ago, perhaps, but not now. Someone else - I think it was the Wasps coach - said something stupid to the effect that the current system won England the world cup, therefore the system is fine. Drongo.

[Havak]

Pity the England coach lacks the nerve to experiment with some fresh blood.

You don’t remember the debut of Mathew Tait against Wales this year?

He has the nerve – just not the intelligence to pick the right young players.

The centre combo for autumn should be Tindall-Smith. I’ll bet a pint with you he picks the inferior combo Abbott-Noon.

Drongo.

Far from it actually – McGeechan is a great bloke, just involved with a god awful club side now.

The substance to what he is saying is that the stable door is open and the horse long gone.

You need to understand the background – in 1996 the RFU had the opportunity to introduce central contracts. Instead the committee (Carlings “old farts”) had the bizarre notion that players should continue not being paid for playing for England whilst the RFU took all the revenue the game created. They didn’t act – the clubs seized the opportunity and signed up the assets (players). The clubs now effectively run the domestic premiership through the ERP organisation. The RFU are part of that but sidelined and somewhat powerless (they make their money from assets they don’t own – nice business if you can get it). They need to break up the ERP and build a new system from the ground up. The RFU will therefore now try and get one of the 12 top clubs to break ranks on the contract issue. It’s going to be messy.

If one want to look rationally at the RFU argument it makes sense. We play too many games and their desire to cap England players to 18 club games a year is sensible. That being said why then did they sign a lucrative sponsorship deal in the summer for the new Anglo-Welsh cup that adds a minimum of three (and max of six) additional games to every premiership clubs calendar when what we needed was less club games?

The RFU preaches from the angels perch – and actually lives amongst the furnaces.
Of course Australia is being touted for the success of it’s central contracts – then someone here pointed out that once the original crop of contracted players started to fall away nothing had been done to ensure a new crop coming through underneath so Eddie is picking local club players for international tours!

If the RFU implements central contracts no club will then develop any English qualifying player (not to mention the clubs have said any player who signs a central contract will never play premiership again!).

This is a battle the RFU cannot win – I wonder why they have chosen to fight it now?

I will admit the argument that Francis Barron made yesterday – the clubs are harming England’s RWC chances – made me laugh. The biggest single obstacle to England’s RWC hopes is the RFU (and via them the coach they will not dump)

If we lost to this weak touring Wallaby side I see no way the coach can survive it.

On a final and completely different note they say the good die young – and I guess the fact that Thatcher is now celebrating her 80th Birthday pretty much proves that one.

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Originally posted by Havak


You don’t remember the debut of Mathew Tait against Wales this year?

He has the nerve – just not the intelligence to pick the right young players.

I stand corrected. While, at the same time, insisting that he hasn't tried enough young players.

Far from it actually – McGeechan is a great bloke, just involved with a god awful club side now.

The substance to what he is saying is that the stable door is open and the horse long gone.

No, that's basically what Keith Wood said. McGeechan - if it was him - saw no reason to change a successful system.

Thanks for the potted history. Carling got something right. Even if it wasn't where he put his pork sword.

If one want to look rationally at the RFU argument it makes sense. We play too many games and their desire to cap England players to 18 club games a year is sensible. That being said why then did they sign a lucrative sponsorship deal in the summer for the new Anglo-Welsh cup that adds a minimum of three (and max of six) additional games to every premiership clubs calendar when what we needed was less club games?

Money, obviously. But your point is made. Age old problem. Greed.

Of course Australia is being touted for the success of it’s central contracts – then someone here pointed out that once the original crop of contracted players started to fall away nothing had been done to ensure a new crop coming through underneath so Eddie is picking local club players for international tours!

I read that comment a while ago. It's bullsh*t. The reality is that there has been more opportunity for player development - via S12, and now S14 - than existed prior to central contracts. And there's young talent around, plenty of it, even if not - sadly - in the front row. Eddie is certainly guilty of, in broad terms, relying on too many older hands. And he's now stiff that the current massive injury list, along with some big names, includes a number of youngsters who would otherwise have toured. That's why he has plucked a couple from club rugby.

If the RFU implements central contracts no club will then develop any English qualifying player (not to mention the clubs have said any player who signs a central contract will never play premiership again!).

Well, it boils down to who is running the game, doesn't it? In Australia, a player has to be available to be selected as a Wallaby in order to play S14. Simple rule. It's not restraint of trade (which is the Australian term). But I expect there would be some sort of EU rule against it over there. What's more, I would have thought an English player who signed a central contract, and was barred from premiership club rugby, could take action against the club(s) under the same EU rule.

This is a battle the RFU cannot win – I wonder why they have chosen to fight it now?

I think they probably could win it, as you indicated earlier. It would just be very very very messy.

On a final and completely different note they say the good die young – and I guess the fact that Thatcher is now celebrating her 80th Birthday pretty much proves that one.

Yes, but look on the bright side. Apparently she struggles to remember her own name anymore.

EDIT. Only in Queensland! I just read that the Reds have told coach Jeff Miller that he won't be given a new contract when this one expires at the end of next season, regardless of how the team performs. If they win the title, which they won't, he's out. But that's the situation. They told him, he immediately quit and demanded a pay out of his final year, but the Reds refused. Only in Queensland!

[child of Thor]

I apologise on the Anglo-welsh fixtures. I agree with Havak that we have too many games in a season(lots of injuries too -strange that ).
I expect the WRFU, using its new fame as Grand Slam winners, has put presure on to add this compitition in the hope of boosting revenue in the welsh game.

I like the idea of an Anglo-welsh fixture, just not without trimming down in other area's first(how i dont know).

[Havak]

The Anglo-Welsh cup is a great idea – but certain teams are not taking it seriously despite the prize money on offer. It’s clear many English clubs are treating it as their tertiary competition – and that doesn’t help anyone?

What do Wales provinces play now – the Celtic league, Celtic Cup and the Anglo-Welsh cup? Sounds like one cup too many perhaps?

While, at the same time, insisting that he hasn't tried enough young players.

I think that is true enough Finbar – and it is why I was pleased to see the likes of Deacon, Palmer and Brown named in the 30. Hope against hope - perhaps the turnip is learning?

McGeechan - if it was him - saw no reason to change a successful system.

Is there any chance it was Shaun Edwards, Wasps Defensive coach? I thought Geecs was smarter that that viewpoint suggests – whereas Edwards is an outspoken t***pot at the best of times.

Carling got something right. Even if it wasn't where he put his pork sword.

What a delightful image.

Yes Carling got that right – the RFU still has class problems and the amateur culture has not been eliminated. Some of them still truly think that players should don the shirt for the ‘honour’ and nothing more (of course these self same old farts insist on first class air travel for themselves when England tour).

Try and track down a copy of Richard Cockerill’s (England hooker 97-99) book “In Your Face” (published 1999) to get a players view on the RFU committee men during the transition to Professional status – he is a rough and ready working class lad and he said what he thought.

He is also the only player that Clive says ever “let him down publicly” by the way because in that self same book he admitted that he pulled apart some old stitches in his hand during an England game in order to let Clive make a ‘blood’ substitution. After the book was published he was never picked again – shame as he was a great player with plenty of ‘mongrel’.

But your point is made. Age old problem. Greed.

Classic “have your cake and eat it” stuff from the RFU. England players must play no more than 18 club games – but clubs must play an absolute minimum of 31 competitive games a year (and possibly as many as 38 if my sums are correct) because of commitments to sponsors - and they must still stay under the 2.2 Million salary cap.

Basically there is a lot of take by the RFU – and not much give.

That's why he has plucked a couple from club rugby.

I stand corrected. The fact remains that the clubs here are citing Australia as a ‘bad’ example.

What's more, I would have thought an English player who signed a central contract, and was barred from premiership club rugby, could take action against the club(s) under the same EU rule.

I doubt it. Our League is run by ERP ltd – a partnership between the clubs and the RFU (and it’s not 50/50). Australian S14 franchises are run by the ARU and play in a tournament run by SANZAR – in other words the ARU is the only party calling the shots for Australians?

I think clubs here can quite easily simply not pick players for any reason they like with little legal risk – they run the competition after all.

I suspect either side has a chance to win through here and become sole administrator of the game – I do feel the RFU is handicapped because the clubs have a lot of smart businessmen involved with them.

Apparently she struggles to remember her own name anymore.

Taken to believing she is the Queen perhaps.

Tony Blair was at the celebrations which is disgusting – a so called Labour Prime Minister has no place attending a party for the woman most responsible for the self interested me-first society Britain has today.

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Originally posted by Havak
Is there any chance it was Shaun Edwards, Wasps Defensive coach? I thought Geecs was smarter that that viewpoint suggests – whereas Edwards is an outspoken t***pot at the best of times.

Yes, it was Shaun Edwards. I remember the name. I was sure it wasn't McGeechan.

Try and track down a copy of Richard Cockerill’s (England hooker 97-99) book “In Your Face” (published 1999) to get a players view on the RFU committee men during the transition to Professional status – he is a rough and ready working class lad and he said what he thought.

I'll try to track it down through Amazon. Been buying a few books online and having them delivered from the UK. I might even look for You Know Who's book! We have an open fire and I often run out of newspaper to light the fire.

He is also the only player that Clive says ever “let him down publicly” by the way because in that self same book he admitted that he pulled apart some old stitches in his hand during an England game in order to let Clive make a ‘blood’ substitution. After the book was published he was never picked again – shame as he was a great player with plenty of ‘mongrel’.

The Welsh centre with the scrubber girlfriend is giving it to Clive publicly, I notice. And B O'Driscoll, too, but to a much lesser extent.

I stand corrected. The fact remains that the clubs here are citing Australia as a ‘bad’ example.

When I read their original comment, I recall failing to see any logic in the argument. How, anyway, could central contracts impact on the development of the next generation?

Tony Blair was at the celebrations which is disgusting – a so called Labour Prime Minister has no place attending a party for the woman most responsible for the self interested me-first society Britain has today.

Yes, well, her greatest fan is running Australia, a major reason why I'm where I am. In fact, the knob at the helm in Australia makes her look like a bleeding heart liberal.

Still, looking on the bright side, Berlusconi will be out of a job here next year. The locals have finally seen through him for the flim flam man that he is.

[Havak]

Yes, it was Shaun Edwards

That makes sense. The guy is a bit if a Dill as you may have ascertained from my previous post.

We have an open fire and I often run out of newspaper to light the fire.

I hear there is a publisher in Melbourne with a special offer on job lots of “Ponting’s Five-nil Ashes victory 2005”.

It’s the best I could come up with – there isn’t much rugby stuff to come back at you with until we hopefully win on 12th November.

The Welsh centre with the scrubber girlfriend is giving it to Clive publicly, I notice.

And I’m loving it as it deeply harms his chances of making the South Africa tour in 2009.

Special reality check for Mr Henson here: YOU ARE A FAIRLY AVERAGE PLAYER (and couldn’t defend your way out a paper bag). Talk of “playing a central role in the first test” speaks volumes to your ego but to be honest old son only Mathew Tait could make you look good in the last six nations and that poor lad was hugely out of his depth that day.

Ditch the fake tan bottle, comb the hair sensibly, push your relationship to the background and concentrate on your rugby you muppet.

I fell much better for airing that.

How, anyway, could central contracts impact on the development of the next generation?

In Oz or in England? I think the Newcastle chief execs argument was that the ARU poured all it’s money into signing League players and centrally contracting star names but ignored youth development at the Franchises for several years. I think you have already debunked that line of argument?

In England it’s easier to say how it would impact because the RFU does not own the clubs. Why would a club develop an English player at it’s own expense to see them then whisked away for half a domestic season? It’s an open invitation to sign a foreign legion that will be available to the club all the time (a la Saints and Exiles already).

In fact, the knob at the helm in Australia makes her look like a bleeding heart liberal.

He is that far to the right? I will admit it did raise eyebrows when he sent the Aussie navy to threaten boats full of refugees and when it was revealed he was beefing up the Aussie airforce to gain a first strike capability against Indonesia (why?) but his image is fairly okay here (RWC reaction not withstanding) – chiefly I think because he never committed the cardinal sin of unsolicitedly touching Elizabeth Saxo-Coburg-Gotha when he was introduced to her.

The locals have finally seen through him for the flim flam man that he is.

He always comes across as something of a clown to me.

[Havak]

PR preview for tonight's game

You know with the line up they have Falcons should achieve much more than they do. Note the miracle - Wilko starting a game of rugby!

Personally I am looking forward to seeing Burke and Finnegan live - Burke was injured for this fixture last year.

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Originally posted by Havak
I hear there is a publisher in Melbourne with a special offer on job lots of “Ponting’s Five-nil Ashes victory 2005”.

It’s the best I could come up with – there isn’t much rugby stuff to come back at you with until we hopefully win on 12th November.

We're obviously in for a long, long month.

In Oz or in England? I think the Newcastle chief execs argument was that the ARU poured all it’s money into signing League players and centrally contracting star names but ignored youth development at the Franchises for several years. I think you have already debunked that line of argument?

Well, yes, I did, but the argument is utter garbage anyway. It shows a complete ignorance of the way rugby happens in Australia. It was a desperate grab for a straw to justify his position.

In England it’s easier to say how it would impact because the RFU does not own the clubs. Why would a club develop an English player at it’s own expense to see them then whisked away for half a domestic season? It’s an open invitation to sign a foreign legion that will be available to the club all the time (a la Saints and Exiles already).

Yes, the argument is much easier to mount under the English system. As I said the other day, it boils down to who runs the game and for what purpose? Does the game exist for the premiership clubs to win titles? Or is there a bigger picture? Give me the Australian system any day.

He is that far to the right? I will admit it did raise eyebrows when he sent the Aussie navy to threaten boats full of refugees and when it was revealed he was beefing up the Aussie airforce to gain a first strike capability against Indonesia (why?) but his image is fairly okay here (RWC reaction not withstanding) – chiefly I think because he never committed the cardinal sin of unsolicitedly touching Elizabeth Saxo-Coburg-Gotha when he was introduced to her.

I have to give Thatcher one thing - she was open and honest about her aims, intentions and philosophies. As repugnant as they were. Her acolyte currently running Australia is a cynical, manipulative little p*ick who works by stealth. He's currently trying to introduce Industrial Relations changes that would make Thatcher blush. He ran them by the country's peak business body before he introduced them into parliament. For example, the regulated minimum wage figure, formerly set by an independent arbitration system that took submissions from unions, employers, government, etc, will now be set by a panel consisting of employers and government Treasury officials. I won't go on.

He always comes across as something of a clown to me.

An utter lightweight in political terms, who has spent most of his term trying to change laws to protect the directors of his many companies - and himself - from prosecution for corruption. The locals have now seen through him.

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Originally posted by Havak
PR preview for tonight's game

You know with the line up they have Falcons should achieve much more than they do. Note the miracle - Wilko starting a game of rugby!

Personally I am looking forward to seeing Burke and Finnegan live - Burke was injured for this fixture last year.

I notice Leicester scraped a draw on the basis of incompetent touchies awarding a conversion that patently obviously wasn't.

[ravagon]

Afternoon all.

Just back from a well-deserved-but-far-too-brief vacation. Will try to catch up on all of the rugby news tomorrow.

Then of course I'll brush up on whats happened in this thread.

[Havak]

Welcome back Ravagon – the thread has been fairly quiet.

It was a desperate grab for a straw to justify his position.

It doesn’t need any justification does it? The clubs are right and the RFU in the wrong. The RFU are even trying to squirm out of a legally binding agreement they signed only two years ago that still has four years to run. He may have cited what you say is a flawed comparison with Australian rugby – but that doesn’t negate his underlying point.

Does the game exist for the premiership clubs to win titles? Or is there a bigger picture? Give me the Australian system any day.

There are benefits to one organisation running the whole shooting match. But give me the NZ system over the Aussie one – at least they have a vibrant club level competition below the S14 construct. And club level competition is important to them as it is to us.

Here if someone has to run the whole shebang it is better IMO if the Professionals do it – that is PRL (not ERP – the name has changed on my blindside but the participants are the same)

I have to give Thatcher one thing - she was open and honest about her aims, intentions and philosophies

The only positive quality IMO.

Howard sounds like a true acolyte. Poor Oz.

Of course Tory Blair listens more to the CBI than to the Unions as well.

The locals have now seen through him.

You have more faith in the Italian electorate than I do – they are not known for being decisive.

I notice Leicester scraped a draw on the basis of incompetent touchies awarding a conversion that patently obviously wasn't.

Yes that was funny – seeing Rob Andrew hop up and down like a demented imp.

But we also had two tries disallowed one of which I am sure was good - so everything balances out.

It was a bizarre and very bad tempered game. Julian White will draw a long suspension after being red carded for a fist fight. A Newcastle lock was red carded with him – but of course Andrew is blaming Tigers and refusing to punish his player internally. This is interesting as it looked to me as if a sly dink on the deck by Finnegan caused Whitey to come up swinging (and hot the wrong man, who then retaliated). Rob Andrew never saw that of course.

Owen looks about a stone over weight by the way – and was pulled off in the second half as he was blowing like a cart horse.

Spreadbury had a bizarre day exercising very little control. There was a total of 22 mins injury time so we were very late heading home.

Wilkinson? Every inch a spent force. Young harry Ellis hit him with an awesome tackle and the golden boy lay down for five minutes for a rest.

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Originally posted by Havak
There are benefits to one organisation running the whole shooting match. But give me the NZ system over the Aussie one – at least they have a vibrant club level competition below the S14 construct. And club level competition is important to them as it is to us.

Yes, but club competitions aside, the Kiwi admin structure parallels the Australian one. The governing body runs the game. Club self-interest can't interfere. That's my point.

Here if someone has to run the whole shebang it is better IMO if the Professionals do it – that is PRL (not ERP – the name has changed on my blindside but the participants are the same)

All these acronyms are confusing me! Are the clubs the professionals? If so, I reckon their self-interest undermines the greater good. The threat to use only foreign players, not to develop local players, and bar any local player who signs a central contract proves the point.

The only positive quality IMO.

Agreed.

Howard sounds like a true acolyte. Poor Oz.

Yes, well, be it on the heads of those who voted for him. Naive, gullible fools. There is massive public disapproval of his IR changes but the electors handed him control of both lower and upper houses at the last election. Serves them right.

You have more faith in the Italian electorate than I do – they are not known for being decisive.

It's actually not a matter of an indecisive electorate here. It's the voting system. A curious mixture of preferential and proportional representation voting. It's just about guaranteed to produce a parliament made up of vastly more minor parties than major parties. Hence so many coalitions - of up to half a dozen parties - need to be formed for anyone to govern. In one sense it's more democratic, but it makes for rapid turnovers when coalitions fall apart.

it looked to me as if a sly dink on the deck by Finnegan caused Whitey to come up swinging (and hot the wrong man, who then retaliated).

Owen did that? I find it hard to believe.

Owen looks about a stone over weight by the way – and was pulled off in the second half as he was blowing like a cart horse.

Only a stone over weight?

Wilkinson? Every inch a spent force. Young harry Ellis hit him with an awesome tackle and the golden boy lay down for five minutes for a rest.

Mmm. Shame. Burned out so young? And how did Matt Burke perform?

[Havak]

The governing body runs the game. Club self-interest can't interfere. That's my point.

I understand the point and agree the Australian and NZ systems have got it right – but there is club self interest to the English situation as the RFU made a huge mistake a decade ago and is now effectively throwing a hissy fit demanding everyone do as they say (and saying that they should be allowed to throw out all existing legal arrangements that don’t suit them)

I’m quite happy for one organisation to run the whole shebang – I’m just not convinced it should be the RFU. How many of us get to make fatal screw ups in life and then can simply wipe the board, take everyone elses assets away from them and start again?

The threat to use only foreign players, not to develop local players, and bar any local player who signs a central contract proves the point.

Your are smarter than that Finbar – you know this threat has been made only because under the current proposals clubs would be producing the English talent at their own expense (not the RFUs!) – and as soon as the lads are good enough the RFU would basically whisk them away and the clubs would never see any benefit. It’s a threat being made to prove a point to the RFU.

If (and it is a big “if”) the clubs remain united the RFU cannot win this one. If the clubs refuse to play centrally contracted players you end up with lads who play no top level rugby other than internationals. I suspect we know how that would end up? Black washes, wattle washes and Bok washes all around.

There is massive public disapproval of his IR changes but the electors handed him control of both lower and upper houses at the last election. Serves them right.

Well presumably he hid his intentions from them at election time as is traditional? A la Tory ‘hit the second quartile of taxpayers with huge indirect taxes and spare the top earners’ Blair?

Compulsory ID Cards at our own expense, National Identity Register (details available to commercial concerns at the right price), nationwide road charging (pay, pay, pay as you drive), failure to adopt the European Working Time Directive, encouraging Minimum wage earning immigrants from the 2004 EC Accession states so employers can hold down wages, a whole Department dedicated to chasing benefit fraud (and yet less tax inspectors chasing tax dodgers than there were in 1997).

Truly he is the spiritual successor to Thatcher (IMHO). I’m not a fan.

In one sense it's more democratic, but it makes for rapid turnovers when coalitions fall apart.

I did hear someone say they have averaged one administration as year since the end of WWII?

Owen did that? I find it hard to believe.

Just an atypical blip for the lad.

And yes about a Stone over his last Wallaby weight I would say – which may have been over weight already?

Mmm. Shame. Burned out so young? And how did Matt Burke perform?

Burke (darn him!) was superb – their only real threat in fact. And kicked superbly after golden balls got hurt.

Not sure if ‘burned out’ is the case – I think his body wrote cheques that cost dearly in the long term. It’s now letting him down. It’s a shame – in late 2002/early 2003 he was a joy to watch.

His is of course also targeted mercilessly in the Premiership. A victim of his own reputation – teams look to take him out (mainly legally – but not always).

Tonight Julian White will learn how long his ban will be. I suspect it could be three months.

[Havak]

By the way Kiwi ref Steve Walsh seems to have a real problem with his temperament? Just been handed his second IRB reprimand and suspension I see?