China is teh evil, OMFG!111!@

[mindseye]

Spiffor, I have considered that. The main problem is that I don't think this phenomenon is found (at least to this degree) in other intensely crowded societies such as India, Indonesia, etc.

Also, it takes place even in sitations in which few are present, in fact as few as two (me and the person I observed), or behind closed doors (e.g. deliberate decision to pollute a city's drinking water, companies selling fake baby food that results in dead babies, etc).

[Agathon]

I don't see any claiming nationalism here at all. Could you please point it out, if it's so obvious.

Michael a few posts back.

As for the belligerent claim. I'd say China is about as belligerent as any other nation. I've provided quite a few examples the last time we discussed this.

They're all examples of border disputes or reasonable (depending on your point of view)territorial claims. That's a lot different than the way that Western Imperial powers behaved.

Please show me an example of China making claims like that.

[Last Conformist]

@Spiff: China's population is huge, but I doubt the typical Chinese citydweller sees very many more people around him on a typical day than does the European one.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
@Spiff: China's population is huge, but I doubt the typical Chinese citydweller sees very many more people around him on a typical day than does the European one.

... unless they live in Shang-town.

I live in the Putuo District of Shanghai, which by itself has more people than the entire city of San Francisco.

When you live in a place Chinese call "crowded", you know it's crowded.

[Last Conformist]

The typical Chinese citydweller doesn't live in Shanghai.

In fact, since China is much less urbanized than Europe, it wouldn't surprise me if the average Chinese sees less strangers on a typical day than does the average European.

[Tingkai]

I'm catching up on the posts. If I miss anything important I'm sure you'll let me know.

Originally posted by mindseye

Doctors: In China, emergency room personnel often refuse any sort of assistance until they first see some cash. Before surgery, patients usually give the doctor a "hongbao" (red envelope filled with cash) to insure the doctor takes care in his work.

Doctors asking for to be paid. How shocking! Why can't they be humanitarians and work for free, like doctors in the United States and Canada

Asking for in the ER! Well that never happens anywhere. If you walk into an ER in the US without insurance, will you get first class treatment.

Giving what I would call lai see to a doctor is simply a cultural specific method of paying a bill.

The fact that doctors ask to get paid does not mean they're only in it for the money. Given the intelligence required to be a doctor, if they were really greedy then they would be businessmen.

Why do people become doctors? Prestige, is probably the main reason. A willingness to help people is up there too, although admittedly I have met doctors who behave as if patients were unnecessary nucisence.

Still, this proves that Chinese people do not necessarily put personal profit primarily over public welfare.

Originally posted by mindseye

Police: You must be joking! As one of my Chinese friends put it, "In China the only difference between police and criminals is their employer." (guess that Chinese friend is a racist, eh Tingkai?) That doesn't mean that all police are thugs, I've met some that seemed really nice.

But that's exactly my point. As you mention, some cops are crocked, some become cops because they want to serve their community. They sign up to catch crooks for the betterment of the general welfare. Unfortunately in China, arresting crooks often means arresting peaceful protesters.

Still, this proves that Chinese people do not necessarily put personal profit primarily over public welfare.

Originally posted by mindseye
Teachers: I often ask students about their career aspirations. Those who choose teaching are of particular interest to me. Unfortunately, I am dismayed by the number one stated reason for wanting to become a teacher: you get a long vacation.

It's called a joke.

In Chinese culture, are held in respect. In some cases this creates unfortunate problems.

See: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/21/news/china.php

Despite scumbags like the ones mentioned in that article, teachers in China would choose that profession because it garners respect, because they like teaching and probably for job security. But if they were interested primarily in profit, becoming a teacher in China is not the way to go.

Once again, this proves that Chinese people do not necessarily put personal profit primarily over public welfare.



We agree on one thing, the flooding of the school at Shalan was a terrible tragedy.

Where we differ is that you seem willing to judge the people there based on incomplete, conflicting information.

Some reports say that the town officials refused to do anything, and the cops could not be reached. Other reports say the town officials could not be reached and the cops refused to do anything.

Whoever refused, if that indeed happened, should be put in jail. But we don't know whether this actually happened.

The cops were reportedly slow to respond. Why? Maybe they were lazy and sleeping on the job. Or maybe they didn't have radios so they didn't know what was happening. Your guess is as good as mine, but for now it is just a guess.

The teachers had cellphones, apparently, but did the people who knew the flood was coming have the teacher's cell phone numbers?

The cop giving out tickets could have been a stupid bureaucrat, or maybe the cop didn't know about the disaster and simply saw cars speeding by.

One of parent complained about the police chief who stood watching. Well, he could have been lazy, but what is more likely is that as the officer in charge he was busy organizing the rescue. I've heard similar complaints while covering natural disasters as a reporter, and the person in charge is actually quite busy, although a passerby might think he's just standing there doing nothing.

As for the cops closing off the area, the same thing happens in a disaster in North America. It's called crowd control and it is used so that the crowds don't interfere with the rescue operations.

Originally posted by mindseye

What really shocked parents was that while some teachers risked their lives to help their students, others climbed to higher ground and abandoned the young. "There is only one little girl left in the first grade," said Sun Xiuqin, the mother of the 10-year-old boy who survived. "When we got there, we saw their teachers standing on the roof. Those were 7- and 8-year-olds. How could they have fended for themselves?"

It's perfectly understandable why the mother is angry, it's part of the grief process.

But imagine you are a teacher with a class of 20 Grade one kids. You're in your classroom when suddenly a flashflood hits. You try to get the kids out, but the water is pouring intrough the classroom door. How many kids can you save. The water rises, its swirling around, pulling kids under. How many kids can you save? Some of the kids can't swim. How may can you save? The water rises above the door. How do you save the kids.

Maybe you grab a couple of the kids and pull them to safety. You're probably exhausted, right? You're in shock. And what happens? Even though you save a couple of kids, some parent sees you and they think, that guy left the kids behind.

Or, maybe you panic. The water rushes in, you're scared, the water is pulling you this way and that way. You freak out and then you swim for safety. And for the rest of your life you live with the idea that you're a coward.

I'm not going to judge those teachers. You can if you want, but I won't.

Originally posted by mindseye
Parents were given an offer of compensation (many were indignant over the amount), but they had to sign a waiver stating they would not hold authorities responsible for their children's deaths. The parents, mostly poor farmers, had little choice.

They were offered 150,000 rmb, they want 400,000 rmb

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=3509

Is the government being cheap? Well, the offer is about 15 years worth of an average urban worker's salary, probably 30 year's income for a farmer.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/government/34367.htm

Are the parents being greedy? I suspect they're angry at the government for failing to protect their kids. But I don't know. I have never been in their situation.

Originally posted by mindseye
My point is this: in how many countries does stuff like this happen regularly?

In developing countries, this happens, unfortunately, all too often. Thousands die every year from floods. In Bangladesh it seems to happen on an annual basis.

Last November, 300 people died in floods in the Philippines. The floods and landslides were made worse by illegal logging.

Almost every year, a typhoon will hit Hong Kong. Usually no one dies, because Hong Kong is a rich city and building here are well built, but when the typhoon reaches the Mainland, people are killed.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye

Well, I'm not terribly surprised you would sum up my argument that way, but I think anyone who bothered to read what I wrote might get a different take.

By the way, have you ever - even once - set foot in mainland China? Just wondering.

Then provide your own quick summary. I based my comments on your initial quote and on what you have posted. It's a fair summary.

As for visiting the mainland, I was first there in 1981. In 97-98 I was there on a regular basis as a journalist and as a traveller. So yes, I have set foot on the mainland many times.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
if a sample is small, it is necessarily unrepresentative?

The sample size is small and unscientific. It a series of anecdotes based on what he wants to see.

And yes, the sample size is likely too small, even if it was done scientifically, for such a vast population and given the different sub-cultures that exist in China.

If you went to San Francisco and formed an opinion about that society, would that opinion be valid for Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Idaho, etc? Would it be correct to say that the majority of Americans accept gays without prejudice and believe that gays should be married?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye
News that I'm a racist may come as a surprise to the many Chinese I am honored to call my friends, co-workers, neighbors, students, clients, and dates, or to those who know what I gave up to come and voluntarily live here for 4-1/2 years and counting.

So of all your many friends, do you say that all of them care about profit first, and are rude to strangers, and they would never help out a stranger who is trouble. That they would watch a person drown rather than get wet.

If you think like that, I wouldn't want you as a friend.

But I strongly suspect that you don't think that way. That your friends are good people and you believe them to be decent human beings, some more decent than others, but decent nonetheless.

In other words, take your statements and apply them to your friends. Are they really that uncaring?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Tingkai


The sample size is small and unscientific. It a series of anecdotes based on what he wants to see.

And yes, the sample size is likely too small, even if it was done scientifically, for such a vast population and given the different sub-cultures that exist in China.

If you went to San Francisco and formed an opinion about that society, would that opinion be valid for Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Idaho, etc? Would it be correct to say that the majority of Americans accept gays without prejudice and believe that gays should be married?

Are you purposefully missing the point or something?

Let me offer an analogy. Say you've got a sack of 100 glass beads of unknown colour. I pick a bead, and find it's green. Clearly, I would not be justified in saying that all or most of the beads are green. Equally clearly, you'd not be justified in saying that since the sample is too small, clearly most of the beads aren't green.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye

Example: many westerners have witnessed the sight of a huge crowd gathered around someone in distress, but no one helping. Someone struck by a car may lie bleeding in the street. 100 - 200 people may come running from blocks away to gather around and ogle (inevitably, there will be a few @ssholes laughing and joking). But not a soul will assist the victim. Because they are a stranger.

So what did those westerners do? I imagine that they charged in, took control, and save the injured person.

Have you never been on a highway where there's a car accident. What do people do? They slow down and gawk to see what's happening. Maybe they'll pull over and go take a real close look.

If some one falls and hurts themselves on a city street, people stop to stare.

Some might laugh, it's humor to take the edge off of something horrible (cops and ambulances drivers do all the time, although in private, it's a coping mechanism).

Or how about homeless people on the street. People will walk by, averting their eyes, ignoring what they see.

What you describe happening in China, happens everywhere.

And why? Curiosity stops people, and then a lot of people don't know what to do.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye
By the way, Tingkai, I'm still waiting for your comments on Lu Xun's criticisms on this very topic. Are his arguments also discredited because he is a "self-evident" racist?

I haven't read Lu Xun's writing so I won't comment on them.

I will say that he comes from a time when Chinese intellectuals were wrestling with the question of how to develop China to a level that would match the European powers. Some argued that the best thing was to close the door to Europeans. Others argued for ditching all things Chinese. The communists obviously thought communism was the answer. Sun Yat sen argued for democracy. Others thought China should copy Japan. Where does Lu Sun fit in? I don't know.

It's possible to hate one's own race or nationality. There is one example, a horrifying one, of national self-hatred and that comes from Cambodia. Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. (not that I'm saying Lu Xun was like that).

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Are you purposefully missing the point or something?

Let me offer an analogy. Say you've got a sack of 100 glass beads of unknown colour. I pick a bead, and find it's green. Clearly, I would not be justified in saying that all or most of the beads are green. Equally clearly, you'd not be justified in saying that since the sample is too small, clearly most of the beads aren't green.

Have I said that all Chinese are not greedy and that all Chinese do not care about their fellow men. NO!

To use your analogy, what I am saying is that you can't describe the contents of a bag based on a limited sample. Hell, there might be something other then glass beads in the bag.

[Last Conformist]

As anyone who've read this thread knows, you've not merely denounced mindseye's claims as unfounded, but also as false. Good luck rewriting history.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
The typical Chinese citydweller doesn't live in Shanghai.

In fact, since China is much less urbanized than Europe, it wouldn't surprise me if the average Chinese sees less strangers on a typical day than does the average European.

I seriously doubt that. One look at a population density map shows you that the Chinese likely see many times more people then your average European per KM traveled.