China is teh evil, OMFG!111!@

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
You're denying that much of the land was given to people who don't know how to farm?

Maybe you think black people are born with an inate knowledge of agriculture?

But he didn't say land was given to people who didn't know how to farm, now did he.

He said: no one ever showed the black how to farm.

Obviously, there have been black farmer since pre-history.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
How about countering his argument instead of psychologizing him?

His racist theories are based on his own observations. His observations are blinded by his perceptions and his inability to see how one society is similar to another society. Which is pretty much what I said in my last post about.

Oh, and he also uses the old canard of so-and-so criticizes his own race so therefore what he says can't be racist. Which is of course false. A Chinese person who racist generalizations about the Chinese race is still a racist. Some people just hate themselves, or more likely, the writer says the rest of his society sucks, why can't they be superior like he is.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Tingkai


But he didn't say land was given to people who didn't know how to farm, now did he.

He said: no one ever showed the black how to farm.

If you'd actually read for comprehension rather than letting your hyperactive racism-detector run on autopilot, you'd realized that "the black" refered to the black people mentioned in the previous sentence, not black people in general.

Obviously, there have been black farmer since pre-history.

There's also been turnips, which is about as relevant.

[Agathon]

Great, this is degenerating into another Sinophobic thread.

I dislike many things that China does, but I'll be the first to admit that the welfare of individual Chinese has been greatly improved in the last 15 years. I also believe that a sudden democratic revolution would probably be a bad thing. Look at Russia for example.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't painfully obvious that many people simply resent the growing power of China for their own nationalistic reasons. I think that's silly – it won't make a difference anyway. Better to be accepting of the Chinese. The fact is that they aren't particularly belligerent anyway. They get pissed over territories that they think are theirs, and they do have good cases in many of those. What they don't have is the British, American, French ideal of travelling thousands of miles to make war on people for no good reason.

Criticising the Chinese race is silly. Lord, I have so many Chinese people in my classes, and guess what? They're completely normal, except that they tend to work harder than everyone else.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Tingkai




His racist theories are based on his own observations. His observations are blinded by his perceptions and his inability to see how one society is similar to another society.

That's, of course, a nice way to get out of having to counter anyone's claims. Reminicent of the commie concept of false consciousness.

Just one problem; it doesn't actually address whether the claims are true. Prejudiced observers are not necessarily wrong.

Which is pretty much what I said in my last post about.

Oh, and he also uses the old canard of so-and-so criticizes his own race so therefore what he says can't be racist. Which is of course false. A Chinese person who racist generalizations about the Chinese race is still a racist. Some people just hate themselves, or more likely, the writer says the rest of his society sucks, why can't they be superior like he is.

Conversely, something isn't necessarily false because a racist says it.


I can't help but getting the impression you much prefer to attack opponents integrity to addressing their claims, which rather suggests you can't address their claims. Care to prove that impression wrong?

[Last Conformist]

@Aggie: Since when is the Chinese being normal not a reason to be scared?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

That's, of course, a nice way to get out of having to counter anyone's claims. Reminicent of the commie concept of false consciousness.

Just one problem; it doesn't actually address whether the claims are true. Prejudiced observers are not necessarily wrong.

Conversely, something isn't necessarily false because a racist says it.


I can't help but getting the impression you much prefer to attack opponents integrity to addressing their claims, which rather suggests you can't address their claims. Care to prove that impression wrong?

But LC, if the primary source of data is anecdote, doesnt that make the psychology of the one reporting the anecdote central?

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Tingkai

There are millions of Chinese who choose public service over chasing money: doctors, teachers, police, etc.

Of course there are civic-minded people in mainland China. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and overseas communities show that attitudes can be changed. But as DaShi noted, you really chose some poor examples, again illustrating your ignorance of what you are clamoring about.

Doctors: In China, emergency room personnel often refuse any sort of assistance until they first see some cash. Before surgery, patients usually give the doctor a "hongbao" (red envelope filled with cash) to insure the doctor takes care in his work.

Police: You must be joking! As one of my Chinese friends put it, "In China the only difference between police and criminals is their employer." (guess that Chinese friend is a racist, eh Tingkai?) That doesn't mean that all police are thugs, I've met some that seemed really nice. However, I've personally witnessed Chinese police and bribery close-up. Involvement with bribery and protection money (and in some cases, far less savory stuff) is pretty much the nationwide norm as I understand it.

Teachers: I often ask students about their career aspirations. Those who choose teaching are of particular interest to me. Unfortunately, I am dismayed by the number one stated reason for wanting to become a teacher: you get a long vacation.

-----

You want a story about Chinese cops and teachers? Last week in Shalan, Heilongjiang province there was a terrible, tragic story of a grade school, stupidly, negligently built square in the path of a known flood plain. When a flashflood struck, 90 - 280 children (reports vary) drowned.

The neighboring town up-river called to warn about the flood headed their way, but the local city official they reached said he was "too busy" to do anything about it. Students later claimed the school filled with 2 meters of water in about ten minutes.

As the school filled with water (it was in a bowl-shaped valley), police were slow to respond. According to parents, they didn't respond until after parents arrived on the scene.

"The teacher, the principal, everybody has a cellphone. They could have easily warned the children," said a 36-year-old woman who gave only her surname, Zeng. (...) "Why didn't they do anything?" she asked. "Are these people human?"

By the time help arrived, most of the parents had fished their children out of the blackened water. Angry villagers said local officials had not only failed to lend a hand, they had stood in the way. As parents raced to the school on motorbikes, police officers stopped some to issue fines for permit violations. "If they didn't block the motorbikes, more parents could have gotten to the school on time to help the teachers save the children," Zeng said.

When the police chief came, he just stood there and watched, said Zeng's father-in-law, who gave only his surname, Zhang. "He wore a life jacket," Zhang said. "One parent asked if he could borrow it. He said no. The parent jumped into the water without it."

What really shocked parents was that while some teachers risked their lives to help their students, others climbed to higher ground and abandoned the young. "There is only one little girl left in the first grade," said Sun Xiuqin, the mother of the 10-year-old boy who survived. "When we got there, we saw their teachers standing on the roof. Those were 7- and 8-year-olds. How could they have fended for themselves?"

The school was supposed to have a second story (which would have saved everyone), but locals said that the city officials pocketed the money intended for construction of the second floor.

When word of the disaster started to get out, local officials called in the military to seal off the area. Some reports or aspects of the story were suppressed. Local police intimidated some reporters.

Parents were given an offer of compensation (many were indignant over the amount), but they had to sign a waiver stating they would not hold authorities responsible for their children's deaths. The parents, mostly poor farmers, had little choice.

Newspapers ran horrifying photos of the muddy handprints the little children left on the walls as they slipped beneath the swirling brown waters. Even a "racist" like me cried when I read this awful story.

A teacher from another town who arived to help was quoted:

I am from Ning'an. Shalan Town is commonly called Shalan Ditch. It is a ditch surrounded by mountain slopes. The water storage area is in a high place 20 kilometers away. On the afternoon of June 10, the heavy rains caused the dam of the water storage area to break. These water storage areas were constructed in 1960 and have not been maintained, but the Ning'an Water Works department decided to buy six Shanghai Passat sedans instead. This was why the tragedy occurred. This afternoon, a deputy mayor was attacked with a iron shovel by an angry citizen who overheard the deputy mayor say that things are alright over the mobile phone. It is impossible to describe what it means to lose your children. Shalan Town has been locked down by armed policemen. This was not a natural disaster but the errors of various officials. The young lives and innocent villagers were killed by corrupt officials. The number of dead is about 300 with 200 missing. At the time, there were more than 600 students in school, and most of the dead were in Grade 1 to 4. There were not too many deaths among the Grade 5 students. I don't understand how the media could report this way. Oh, it breaks my heart! So many lost lives!

From a Chinese reporter (whose story was suppressed):

Summarizing the above and comparing against the official positions, I believe that the core facts before the Shalan Town disaster were the negligence and indifference of the local lower-level officials and the core facts afterwards were the lies and cover-ups by the officials collectively.
(...)
The villagers told the Disaster Investigation Group about the corruption among the town officials, especially about the public money for school construction being stolen.
(...)
An uncle of a dead child wanted us to help him plan on how to get more money from the government
(...)
I am not demeaning anyone. I am just recording . Such are our country, our family relationships and the realities of what we live under.

My point is this: in how many countries does stuff like this happen regularly? By Tingkai's standards, I suppose even asking that question makes one a "racist."

Here are two excellent blogs with a lot of information about the story, including press reports and photos:
Paper Tiger
EastSouthWestNorth

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Ya think? Like its been asserted for decades by Arendt and others that totalitarianism is isolating, and you take a population only recently (and barely) out of totalitarianism, and you start telling them to enrich themselves, and they end up money grubbing indivualists. Will wonders never cease!!!

As much as I like Arendt, I think your annalysis here is wrong. And the claim is that this self-interest predates the establishment of the now defunct (for 25 years) Communist totalitarian state anyhow.

[chequita guevara]

[GePap]

Mindseye:

How does that account show a Cultural difference?

I mean, would you take the stories of how the Somoza government pocketed most of the relief money after the 1973 earthquake (the capital Managua still bears scars) in Nicaragua as proof of a self-interested culture?

In that story I see one of deep corruption and Nepotism. You saw that all the time in Latin America in the last few decades. And then you get to the kleptocracies in Africa.

So again, what in that story screams "CHINESE CULTURE!" as opposed to "CORRUPTION AND NEPOTISM IN AN AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY!"

[chequita guevara]

More specifically, the problem is linked to low paid officials who see people enriching themselves around them. This creates a breeding ground for corruption. You can't mix capitalism into a socialist system without tearing apart society.

This isn't specifically a Chinese problem. My Indians friends keep calling India the most corrupt country inthe world. You can't get anything done without a bribe. Markets and socialism just don't mix.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

I can't help but getting the impression you much prefer to attack opponents integrity to addressing their claims, which rather suggests you can't address their claims. Care to prove that impression wrong?

Thank you for precisely nailing the problem: I provide example after example (from news stories, as well as personal observation). But Tingkai won't address those, he prefers to simply shout "racist".

News that I'm a racist may come as a surprise to the many Chinese I am honored to call my friends, co-workers, neighbors, students, clients, and dates, or to those who know what I gave up to come and voluntarily live here for 4-1/2 years and counting.

If anyone doubts my assertions, anecdotes or my examples, go spend a few hours reading China blogs. Better yet, ask someone else who actually lives here. That might be more time consuming than simply accusing someone of being a hateful racist, but at least you'll know what you are talking about.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by GePap
Mindseye:

How does that account show a Cultural difference?

GePap, could you maybe go read the other examples I listed in the other thread first? I'm getting tired of re-typing this stuff. Like I said before, it's something you see in a myriad of ways, great and small, every day.

If you want more examples, just let me know how many and what type. I could also point you to articles written by others (other "racists"?) on the same topic, but like I already said, better yet is to ask anyone who actually lives here.

I added this particuliar example because (1) it was such a grotesque, extreme multi-layered example, and 2) it's been on my mind lately.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


But LC, if the primary source of data is anecdote, doesnt that make the psychology of the one reporting the anecdote central?

It's not enough if Tingkai would have us believe that mindseye is wrong. As said, an observation isn't necessarily wrong because the observer is biased.

Also, Tingkai's argument is, near as I can tell, circular; mindseye is a racist because he's wrong, and he's wrong because he's a racist. Perfectly consistent, but to make this hypothesis more likely than the one that mindseye is an honest observer making correct observations, Tingkai needs to establish independently that mindseye is wrong.