Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings - thoughts about Theoden and Palpatine

[BeBMan]

MarkG = Palpatine, Ming = Annakin? Laser sword = banning rod? But who's Theoden here......

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
I disagree.

Tolkien's main experience with modern technological war was WW1. Did Tolkien himself ever say much about WW2 or any influence it might have had on his tales?

Lucas created Palpatine in the late 1970's, so the whole errosion of civil rights in the late 70's does not make much sense.

Tolkien fought in WW1 or at least served in the military but he spent most of his life being a prof. of midieval European history. He wrote the Hobbit in the 1930's but the LotR wasn't published until after WW2 and he spent much of WW2 writting and rewritting the story. Tolkien himself often said his battle between good and evil was shaped very much by the real life battle between axis and allies while Germany was the Mordor which was defeated but rose again to try to conquor the world. England was of course Gondor which was once mighty but losing strength.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


I disagree.

Tolkien's main experience with modern technological war was WW1. Did Tolkien himself ever say much about WW2 or any influence it might have had on his tales?

Lucas created Palpatine in the late 1970's, so the whole errosion of civil rights in the late 70's does not make much sense.

re tolkien - tolkien denied the trilogy was allegory of ww2. He specifically pointed out that the main themes had been developed in outline by 1939. Which is not QUITE convincing to me, to the extent that one focuses not on the course of the war (which is NOT like WW2, as GePap rightly points out, the Battle of the Pelennor fields was probably based on WW1, which Tolkien experienced) but on the appeasement issues wrt Rohan, etc. Appeasement was certainly an overt issue before Sept '39, and was largely viewed as a failure after spring of '39.

[Boris Godunov]

Re: just a sidenote

Originally posted by oedo
Not exactly. Palpatine's soul survived his death. There are still three more Episodes to come.
Boba Fett survived as well, BTW.

Ugh. This is expanded universe crap and should no way be treated as canon. The return of Palpatine is from the Dork...erm, Dark Empire comic book series, which is considered by most fans to be atrociously bad. I know I found what I read of it painful.

As far as Lucas is concerned, both Palpatine and Boba Fett died in their respective movie demises. And since Lucas has already said he won't do any more SW movies, that's his final word on the matter.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke
Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

yeah right. a quiet english country village, that has mail service, and umbrellas, for gawdsake, thats taken over by folks who want to "gather and redistribute", who want to maximize production, and who pollute for the helluvit, only to be defeated by the brave townsfolk, like I wonder which Icelandic Edda he got THAT from.

[alva]

that's his final word on the matter.

Pleaaaaasse let it be true.

[Boris Godunov]

Tolkien explicitley stated he did not draw his story rom contemporary events. What more do you want?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke
Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

In the prologue he wrote for one edition of LOTR Tolkien admitted to one allegorical feature. Part of his youth he grew up in the English countryside graced by a peaceful little pond he loved to play around. Returning to the are after WW1 he found it despoiled by an ugly industrial mill. This incident in his past became the inspiration for the closing chapters of ROTK, in which the Hobbit heroes return to their homeland to find it despoiled by the industrial developments of the minions of Mordor. By extension one can also wonder if Sauron, Mordor, the orks and all that were allegories for the modern age which Tolkien, and his friend C.S. Lewis often decried.

[Kuciwalker]

Re: Re: just a sidenote

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Ugh. This is expanded universe crap and should no way be treated as canon.

It is, though.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by oedo
From what I read, Palpatine will find a new body.

Gasp! He's going to share the back of some English public school teacher's head and torture poor Harry Potter!

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by oedo
Lando will realize an old childhood dream and will moderate the "Other Games" forum at Apolyton. He'll never make it to the HOF, though.

Is that the ice planet of HOF? *groan*

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Re: Re: just a sidenote

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
It is, though.

No it isn't. At least, not by a majority. Those who think the Zahn novels are the true successors to the movies would scoff at the notion that Dark Empire is in any way legitimate (esp. since they are contradictory).

In fact, there is so much contradictory stuff in the EU that considering any of it canon is silly. Until Lucas puts it on film, it ain't canon, simple as that.

[Kuciwalker]

The fans don't define canon. I believe Lucasarts or whoever declared the EU canon.

Though I agree Zahn is far superior.

[Dr Strangelove]

Re: Re: Re: Re: just a sidenote

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No it isn't. At least, not by a majority. Those who think the Zahn novels are the true successors to the movies would scoff at the notion that Dark Empire is in any way legitimate (esp. since they are contradictory).

In fact, there is so much contradictory stuff in the EU that considering any of it canon is silly. Until Lucas puts it on film, it ain't canon, simple as that.

Which is why Star Trek fans will always win any argument about who would win a conflict between the Federation and the Empire.