Growing rift? UK+Europe

[CapTVK]

You're just jealous we beat you to the punch by 200 years Oerdin

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Seven virtually independent proviences who couldn't decide upon who would be king so the feudal lords decided they'd pick a head of state from among the nobility isn't exactly a Republic even if they called it such. Key elements, like large numbers of the actual population getting to vote, are missing.

When did the US abandon slavery? Does that make it not a Republic until the 1860s? When did the US award Women the right to vote? Was it not a republic until the 20th Century?

[BeBMan]

The entire discussion about who was first is a bit weird, especially when you think that the US didn't came out of nowhere, that it was made of former European colonies, and that its foundation (which was certainly a great moment in history ) was highly influenced from European ideas (you know, all that enlightenment stuff).

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by BeBro
The entire discussion about who was first is a bit weird, especially when you think that the US didn't came out of nowhere, that it was made of former European colonies, and that its foundation (which was certainly a great moment in history ) was highly influenced from European ideas (you know, all that enlightenment stuff).

Oerdin will be desappointed, he thought that everything was invented after 1780 in America.

[kronic]

Originally posted by Oerdin


No, he didn't. Chirac was forced to set the rate of increase to the CAP budget at 1% per year. Setting a rate of increase isn't the same as "freezing" a budget item.



Because that actually does freeze the amount the UK reciueves where as CAP was only set at a certain rate of increase. Either both are frozen without increases or both are cut by equal amounts but the UK will not accept one being set in stone while the other gets to continue increasing every year.

I think I already responded to both points.

Ah, come on. It can't grow more than 1 % pa, which is less than the growth of the EU budget and less than the inflation rate. If Blair said after Juncker's last proposal, we agree to the compromise, if we can get € 5,5bn + 1 % pa, the others would have taken it.

The UK doesn't even get € 5,5bn this year. There was just no will to accept any compromise.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by kronic

The UK doesn't even get € 5,5bn this year. There was just no will to accept any compromise.

Except that isn't based upon facts and is just your opinion. The truth is Junckers didn't offer such a deal even though Blair pointedly offered several suggestions to reach a compromise. It's hard to see why the UK would accept any cuts or changes without additional cuts being offered on the CAP. You see in negotiations past consessions are ancient history and France got something for the cap on CAP (pardon the pun) so it has already been paid for that consession. Now something new must be offered.

Blair did offer several suggestions to reach a compromise but the French rejected them all and refused to offer anything more then cut the UK's rebate without offering anything the UK wanted. If you want something from me then I need to get something I want other wise it is dictating and not a deal.

[Spiffor]

Err, there was a possible compromise at a time during the summit. Eventually, Blair and Chirac blew it off. That was fairly predictable, considering that neither wanted to compromise in the first place.

[Solly]

Chirac is a loon.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Europe can still get a Constitution but it will actually have to get a proper one know which limits itself to describing how the government will work and will have to ditch all of the useless policy crap which never belonged in a constitution to begin with. It will have to be short, sweet, and to the point instead of some treaty which is thousands of pages long and filled with garbage which has nothing to do with explaining how a government will function. In the long run you don't want to enshrine currently vogue policies into a constitution any way since those policies will undoubtedly be changed some time in the future.

Ideally you want something which everyone can read and understand and which school kids can memorize. It will describe succinctly how the government works, how disputes will be resolved, and what rights the citizens have. More then that is just worthless garbage which should be ejected or saved for a separate document.

I wonder if you red the constitutional treaty. The part I, which is the real constitution (Definition of the Union, citizenship, institutions, competences, democratic life,financing, membership), is made of 60 articles (12 pages).
The part II, Chart of the fundamental rights, is made of 54 articles (6 pages).
Total : 114 articles and 18 pages.

Is that so different from what you suggest?

[MikeH]

"which schoolkids can memorize"

The EU constitution isn't perfect but the problem with the US constitution is that it's too unspecific and open to interpretation. Kids can memorize it but to actually understand what it means they need to understand a huge number of supreme court cases that spell out exactly how the constitution is interpreted in law.

[DAVOUT]

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

I am admiring american kids who are able to memorize such a poorly organized constitutional text.

[MikeH]

True.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by DAVOUT

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html

I am admiring american kids who are able to memorize such a poorly organized constitutional text.

Nah, can't be that difficult - it's only 28 A4 pages.

Some parts are quite funny - I would call Art I sect 8 and 9 garbage collectors - not that it's gabage, but more like oups we must remember to get something about this, and also something of that into the text.

[child of Thor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4110562.stm

seems like Blair is trying to hold up his hands and say "look its not my fault"

Which it isn't 100% as it takes two to tango.

[MikeH]

It's not his fault. He's willing to talk about the rebate if Chirac is prepared to talk about farm subsidies.

Blair is at least prepared to talk about a deal, Chirac wants to screw Britain but give nothing in return.