Growing rift? UK+Europe

[child of Thor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4089770.stm

The gloves are coming off it seems. Is this going to be eurovision all over again.......but more serious? Is this the price we must pay(the uk) for getting into bed with G.Bush?

Part of me agrees that our rebate is unjust in todays EU, part of me agrees that we have a point saying the other EU members need to look at their farm subsidies.

So why all the fuss - lets modernise the EU?

[Krill]

I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Krill
I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

I find it highly amusing that the French are the source of the charge. Especially as they net contribute far less than the UK in total, per capita, per GDP etc even with the rebate in place. Take away the rebate and the French are net nil contributors!

[Dauphin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4088132.stm

You can always depend on the British and French to turn an argument into a row.

Having witnessed them over many years, I have tried to identify the various rules governing these encounters.

# There is no closed season. Each side can attack the other whenever it wants. The subject doesn't really matter. This is the 100-years war by other means. The key thing is to maintain the offensive on whatever front.

# Each party knows that the other can take it. It is a way of continuing history - with nobody killed. France and the UK know underneath that not since Waterloo have they come to blows nor will they again.

The Entente may not be that Cordiale but it is now 101 years old. Both love this at heart. They are two sides of the same coin - both nationalistic, proud and prickly. And a bit absurd to others.

# This is an exclusive Franco-British club. It is evenly matched. Nobody else can join. It is impossible, for example, to bring the Germans in. They might take it too seriously and history is just a bit too sensitive. And nobody else counts. You cannot have such fun with Luxembourg.

# Treat the other side's arguments with contempt. You present your own, of course, as gospel. Thus, the French see nothing but good in the common agriculture policy and the British see nothing but bad. The same is true with the rebate. You must never concede that the other fellow might have a point. Not in public anyway.

# Blame the other side for your own failings. In the recent referendum the French blamed the Brits for something called "Anglo-Saxon" attitudes and policies which were apparently threatening to ruin France. The counter charge is that European (meaning French-inspired) bureaucracy is strangling the plucky Brits.

# You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

[Hueij]

@Dauphin. True, so very true...

[Krill]

Pretty much dead on correct.

[Agathon]

# You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

Even Reagan was ambivalent about that at first.

[child of Thor]

"German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has warned Tony Blair there is "no space for national egotism" in talks over the European Union's budget."

from the bbc link at top.

But the Germans have joined in, on the side of the french and every other EU member

I see us maybe getting our arses wipped - like in eurovision

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by child of Thor
"German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has warned Tony Blair there is "no space for national egotism" in talks over the European Union's budget."

from the bbc link at top.

But the Germans have joined in, on the side of the french and every other EU member

I see us maybe getting our arses wipped - like in eurovision

New Europe can be persuaded to put pressure on the French and Germans to rethink CAP, and the UK can be intransigent as it wants if it stays on that message.

[DanS]

/me puts some popcorn in the microwave

Go Brits!

[child of Thor]

In a way i think Chirac should be noble about this. From the way i understand it he has become so damaged on the home front, he is unlikely to remain in power come the next french election(there could be a swing back to the socialists).

So why not take the opportunity to accept that the EU's finacial sistuation isn't as good as it could be, and take up britains offer of relooking at the whole deal? So what if a load of farmers get miffed - they aren't going to vote him in next time anyway.

[Locutus]

The rift is not growing, the rift has always been there. Sometimes it's just more noticeable.

The Brits just can't make up their minds if they want to be part of Europe or not. The rest is just ordinary bickering that seems to pretty much define Europe, indiscriminate of the nations involved (I can assure you Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-French relations are just as 'bad', just less high-profile in international media).

It beats killing each other, so I'm not complaining...

[Spiffor]

You can always depend on the British and French to turn an argument into a row.

Having witnessed them over many years, I have tried to identify the various rules governing these encounters.

# There is no closed season. Each side can attack the other whenever it wants. The subject doesn't really matter. This is the 100-years war by other means. The key thing is to maintain the offensive on whatever front.

# Each party knows that the other can take it. It is a way of continuing history - with nobody killed. France and the UK know underneath that not since Waterloo have they come to blows nor will they again.

The Entente may not be that Cordiale but it is now 101 years old. Both love this at heart. They are two sides of the same coin - both nationalistic, proud and prickly. And a bit absurd to others.

# This is an exclusive Franco-British club. It is evenly matched. Nobody else can join. It is impossible, for example, to bring the Germans in. They might take it too seriously and history is just a bit too sensitive. And nobody else counts. You cannot have such fun with Luxembourg.

# Treat the other side's arguments with contempt. You present your own, of course, as gospel. Thus, the French see nothing but good in the common agriculture policy and the British see nothing but bad. The same is true with the rebate. You must never concede that the other fellow might have a point. Not in public anyway.

# Blame the other side for your own failings. In the recent referendum the French blamed the Brits for something called "Anglo-Saxon" attitudes and policies which were apparently threatening to ruin France. The counter charge is that European (meaning French-inspired) bureaucracy is strangling the plucky Brits.

# You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by child of Thor
So why not take the opportunity to accept that the EU's finacial sistuation isn't as good as it could be, and take up britains offer of relooking at the whole deal? So what if a load of farmers get miffed - they aren't going to vote him in next time anyway.

First, the issue comes up because Chirac needs to weaken Tony on his "let's bury the constitution" stance. The Rosbif rebate is widely loathed in Europe, and even the traditionally pro-Rosbif new members don't want to "pay for Britain's rebate". It's actually pretty adept of Chirac to pick this issue in time of need.

Secondly, Chirac is considerably weakened at home, and he wants his last years in power to be as little unstable as possible. When you're trying to save face during a regime crisis, the last thing you need is unhappiness among the farmers. It tends to be much more nasty than strikes among the doctors

[Dinner]

The rebate is just fine.