Growing rift? UK+Europe

[chequita guevara]

France and Germany should just merge and invite other countries to join.

[DanS]

Originally posted by el freako


And had you been there you would have scoffed at the idea of a nation-state

By dismissing what is happening in europe in such a way you sadly only show your ignorance of the subject - you have a good mind DanS, you should use it.

I've thought about this some. Probably not as much as others.

What the EU has now is government by diplomacy. I view that as an abomination -- an undemocratic spawn of the devil. As long as not much is decided at the EU level, I'm reasonably cool with this state of affairs. The peace is successfully being kept (which was the American project in the first instance). But as bigger portfolios are handed over to Brussels, this "muddling through" that you somehow elevate to a new form of doing business among nations is just not a strong enough structure.

I've been consistent in wishing that the EU would just get on with it and form a federation. But the voters of the EU are balking even at a weak confederation.

Edit: Please note that Colon lives under a federation and doesn't agree with me at all that the EU should be a federation. I respect the view, but as I understand his position, he's for muddling through with very few decisions being made in Brussels.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I want Turkey to join, but only once Europe is ready. I'm sure Turkey will be ready for European membership much, much sooner before we agree to reform our institutions so that we remain functional after accepting the Turks.

I also wish we could wait for the Eastern economies to catch up with the West, before adding a population that is about as high as the latest enlargment's, and that is much, much poorer.

With that attitude, the Turks could be left waiting forever, tarnishing Europe's image. It would also necessitate a deplorable choice between Turkey and Ukraine, since your views suggest that admitting both would be too much.

If I remember rightly, you want to scrap the CAP and replace it with national subsidies. Is this still your view?

[DanS]

Originally posted by Spiffor

How?

At heart, the French vote was a rejection of integration, or at least continued integration with most of the EU, such as the Brits. You might come back with some two track integration strategy, but basically that's France picking and choosing among EU members for candidates for integration.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by el freako

Chuckle all you want, europe has led the world in governmental systems for at least half a millenium -

Oh, you mean the modern world's first Republic was in Europe? No? Well you must have meant the modern world's first Bill of rights was in Europe. No again? Hmm, well maybe you meant the modern world's first written constitution? Damn, way is the anwser always know with you?

Unlike you I don't claim one side has "lead the world in government systems for at least the last half millenium" since reality is a bit more complex.

[Dinner]

The idea solution is to have MEPs directly elected by the population and just skip the national governments all together. If the goal is a federal super state then establishing that federal state as independent of the current national governments will be key. The voting districts should be based upon areas of equal population and should cut across current nationaql boundries in order to force different groups to work together though hopefully ones which speak the same language where possible.

[Odin]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
France and Germany should just merge and invite other countries to join.

Charlemagne's empire reborn. Gotta love that.

[atawa]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Oh, you mean the modern world's first Republic was in Europe? No?

It wasnt

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sandman
With that attitude, the Turks could be left waiting forever, tarnishing Europe's image. It would also necessitate a deplorable choice between Turkey and Ukraine, since your views suggest that admitting both would be too much.

Admitting both wouldn't be too much in the long term. Admitting both now (or soon) would be way too much, since we are years from a geuine integration of the new members.

The Constitution, wich was the most ambitious programme to reform the European institutions ever, was a failure. The constitution's mission was to make the EU less unwieldy now that we're 25, but it didn't adress the real blocking points of the institutional arrangements. It also just got shot down by two referenda out of three, and the No is rapidly rising elsewhere.

We'll need time for a EU that can be functional enough, flexible enough, and economically homogenous enough, that we can continue the EU's expansion. If we continue to expand at an overly high pace, the EU won't be able to make any progress, and will be stuck with the statu quo (and the statu quo sucks, from every perspective).

I don't want to see a EU that will remain stuck for decades until it becomes fully irrelevant. If we are to consolidate our Union, we must avoid the increased inefficiencies and the increased rivalries, that can only come with the current system as it enlarges.

If I remember rightly, you want to scrap the CAP and replace it with national subsidies. Is this still your view?

Yes (more accurately: almost)
I only salute Chirac's tactics, not the content of his policy. Thanks to his tactics (i.e. making a diversion with the UK rebate), Blair couldn't create a European dynamic in favour of the British view this time.
The CAP sucks donkey balls as it is. It needs serious reform, so that money doesn't go to a completely outdated productivism. It must become an agricultural development fund, that should be much much less costly, and whose budget goes primarily to the East. I'm not against subsidizing family farmers, but I think the rich countries can pay for their farmers by themselves.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
At heart, the French vote was a rejection of integration, or at least continued integration with most of the EU, such as the Brits. You might come back with some two track integration strategy, but basically that's France picking and choosing among EU members for candidates for integration.

I don't see how it goes against the "French" vision for the EU. This vision is about deepening the EU's institutions, and widening the EU's membership goes against it, at least until there is a serious supranational aspect.

The material condition for the "French" vision of the EU is to pauvse the enlargment until we have a more integrated Europe, or at least until "core Europe" becomes integrated.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Oh, you mean the modern world's first Republic was in Europe? No?

Yup, that would happen to be my country. Dutch Republic, about 400 years ago

[Dinner]

Originally posted by atawa


It wasnt

I know! That was the point.

[Dinner]

Europe can still get a Constitution but it will actually have to get a proper one know which limits itself to describing how the government will work and will have to ditch all of the useless policy crap which never belonged in a constitution to begin with. It will have to be short, sweet, and to the point instead of some treaty which is thousands of pages long and filled with garbage which has nothing to do with explaining how a government will function. In the long run you don't want to enshrine currently vogue policies into a constitution any way since those policies will undoubtedly be changed some time in the future.

Ideally you want something which everyone can read and understand and which school kids can memorize. It will describe succinctly how the government works, how disputes will be resolved, and what rights the citizens have. More then that is just worthless garbage which should be ejected or saved for a separate document.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by CapTVK


Yup, that would happen to be my country. Dutch Republic, about 400 years ago

Seven virtually independent proviences who couldn't decide upon who would be king so the feudal lords decided they'd pick a head of state from among the nobility isn't exactly a Republic even if they called it such. Key elements, like large numbers of the actual population getting to vote, are missing.

[BeBMan]

Then take Switzerland