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Europe's demilitarization

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  • Europe's demilitarization

    Should Europe increase its military spending?

    Here's an interesting article about the lack of European spending on defense. Personally, I think the US is spending roughly a proper amount on defense (down to about 3.75% of the economy, without Iraq/Afghanistan, 1/2 to 1/3rd of what we spent during the Cold War). But often I get frustrated at waste at the Defense Department and think we should get more for our money. So I'm not sure this "systems of systems" R&D is really worth it. Sounds vaguely like Washington bureaucratic-speak for "expensive worthless stuff."

    In any event, I think it's in our interest that Europe take more responsibility for its own defense. As the referenced report states, other than the UK and France, which spend about 2.75% of their economies on defense, nobody in Europe spends much at all -- none above 2%. Pretty pathetic, IMO.

    Also, it's interesting to note that this report is completely opposite of what some French leaders think about creating a counterbalance to the "hyperpower" US. Rather, it talks about EU collaboration with the US. This makes sense to me. If we can make our defense dollars/euros go further by collaborating, that's good stuff.

    Pertinent parts bolded.



    Europe warned to boost its weapons' spending
    By Peter Spiegel in London
    Published: June 5 2005 21:58 | Last updated: June 5 2005 21:58

    Europe is at risk of falling severely behind the US in weapons technologies unless it increases spending on military equipment and research by as much as €45bn a year, a panel appointed by Michele Alliot-Marie, the French defence minister, will warn this week.

    According to people who have read the panel's report, which will be presented at a symposium attended by Ms Alliot-Marie on Wednesday, it found that spending on military hardware in the European Union is equal to only a third of the Pentagon's equipment budget, and research spending Europe-wide totals only a fifth of US outlays.

    While the panel found that Europe's defence industry continues to be competitive in several sectors - fighter aircraft, military helicopters and defence electronics - it warns that heavy US spending on high-technology networks that can link weapons together could leave Europe's capabilities in so-called "systems of systems" far behind.

    It calls for the establishment of a ministry working group, the College Operationnel des Systemes de Systems, to plot French strategy in the area.

    The report was compiled by the Defence Economy Council, a panel set up by Ms Alliot-Marie after taking over the ministry three years ago to assess the health of France and Europe's defence industries and to give a higher profile to defence spending.

    The nine-member council is chaired by Philippe Esper, a long-time government and defence industry official, and includes General Henri Bentegeat, chief of the French defence staff, and François Lureau, head of the defence procurement agency.

    People who have read the report said that it finds France and Britain have accounted for nearly half of all spending on military equipment in Europe over the past three years and more than two-thirds of all EU defence research budgets.

    France and Britain are also two of only four European countries that spend 2 per cent of gross domestic product on defence (the US spends more than 3 per cent), and the report says an EU-wide budget of 2 per cent of GDP would increase military spending by €45bn, which would help preserve Europe's defence base.

    Although the study includes several recommendations for European co-operation in defence spending, it is also said to include a call for increased transatlantic partnerships, urging French industry and officials to overcome past difficulties to work more closely with the US.


    It notes that Britain's BAE Systems remains the only European defence company with a big US presence, and provides encouragement to French and European groups to achieve a similar standing.

    Indeed, people who have seen the report said it cites the UK as a model for several defence spending initiatives, particularly its recent push to outsource Ministry of Defence activities - including some front-line missions, such as air-to-air refuelling tankers - to the private sector.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

  • #2
    Given how bloodthirsty they've been throughout their history (Crusades, wars of religion, Napoleonic warfare and worldwide conquest, the Nazi/Communist ideologies, etc), the last thing the planet needs is an armed Europe.

    Imho, of course.

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    • #3
      0.1/10
      In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by DanS
        In any event, I think it's in our interest that Europe take more responsibility for its own defense. As the referenced report states, other than the UK and France, which spend about 2.75% of their economies on defense, nobody in Europe spends much at all -- none above 2%. Pretty pathetic, IMO.
        Yeah you're right. How are they ever going to get to the top of the Killing People League with that kind of apathy. They should really put more effort into their death-dealing infrastructure. Especially now with all the instability in the region, it's never been more vital that these democracy loving sovereign nations be able to inflict rapid and efficient destruction and slaughter in any situations.
        Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
        "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

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        • #5
          JohnT: If Europe doesn't spend the money, that usually means we're spending the money. Are you cool with that?
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • #6
            Yup.

            I'm serious. Few things on this planet are more dangerous than when Europe gets a hard on for something. Better to keep them tame.

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            • #7
              I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. But I just don't like to spend my money, when somebody else could be spending their own money. That's all.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #8
                DanS, I prefer my GDP being spent in more useful things, thank you very much
                "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DanS
                  I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. But I just don't like to spend my money, when somebody else could be spending their own money. That's all.
                  Nothing forces you to spend nearly as much money in defense. It's not like there's an arm race going on right now.

                  Actually, if Europe spent more on military research, we could be witnessing a new "arms race" of sorts. No thanks.
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                  • #10
                    You're never going to get far in the US with that view. Our national history suggests that we should keep our arms locker full precisely so we don't have an arms race. We've thrown our arms away more than once and it's gotten us nothing but heartache.

                    But historically, Americans have been distrustful of the military industrial complex. I share this distrust.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DanS
                      You're never going to get far in the US with that view. Our national history suggests that we should keep our arms locker full precisely so we don't have an arms race.
                      To each his own national trauma then.

                      I don't see why we Euros should invest in weaponry when there is no tangible military threat. If you Yanks enjoy wasting your money in such toys, it's your problem, not ours.

                      We've thrown our arms away more than once and it's gotten us nothing but heartache.

                      What happened?
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                      • #12
                        The resurgence of a militarized dictatorship in Germany (WW I) and the Soviet Union (WW II).
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #13
                          Maybe we should spend less on our military and stop invading places.
                          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                          • #14
                            We shouldn't spend more than 1 % of the GDP for our military. And we should reduce our ridiculously high number of soldiers. And we should abolish the draft.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DanS
                              The resurgence of a militarized dictatorship in Germany (WW I) and the Soviet Union (WW II).
                              I don't see how either comes from a lack of military spending. The US didn't intervene in militaristic Germany because the US was isolationistic at the time. The US didn't "beat the iron while it was hot" with the USSR (it didn't invade the USSR in 1945), despite the arms locker being more than full at the time.

                              In today's world, the US can pwn any non-nuclear country. The only military weakness of the US is with peacekeeping, but there's no need for kickass technology in this job.
                              "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                              "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                              "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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