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[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

But in the case of Star Wars, it is!

But the point was that people don't always think of a series of having to begin with a series name. This comes into play when non-fans hear about a series.

Another example is the Rambo series or the Man With No Name Trilogy.

"Don't always?" Perhaps. But most of the time? Absolutely.

You've cited three examples. Now, should I choose to cite all the examples wherein the name of the original film and the name of the series were identical, do you want to take a guess as to how exponentially longer a list it would be than your three?

I'll add that with Raiders, the official name is "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark." So the series has colloqually become known as the "Indiana Jones" trilogy, but most people still know the original was "Raiders of the Lost Ark," because that's how it was titled/branded/marketed.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So non-fans know the title "Star Wars," but don't know there was an actual movie called "Star Wars?"

Yes... a series name doesn't mean there was a movie with that name.

Indiana Jones series, Rambo trilogy, and A Man With No Name Trilogy all bear that out.

Non fans know the series as Star Wars, but don't know the names of the individual movies or what they covered. This is shown when CNN says "Star Wars Breaks Record". It just confirms that to the non-fan that Star Wars is just the series name.

Look at this CNN.com article:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/22/box.office.reut/index.html

"'Star Wars' reigns over box office"

Star Wars has been taken as the name of the series. Unless you think that non-fans think the original 1977 movie is 'reign[ing] over box office'?

When you made your statements about "under a rock" and "man on the street," you were clearly referring to non-fans.

Your stated on 5/20 at 2:22 AM:

"Oh come on. If one starts saying "Yoda," it's pretty much a given you're talking any movie but ANH."

You are telling me that you were refering to non-fans as well? Which non-fan knows that Yoda wasn't in the first movie?

Lets be straight here, we were both talking about the fans. Only they would know that Yoda came around in ESB.

I called you on the change THEN. My post 20-05-2005 18:22:

That was me pointing out that your shifting to "the first movie" wasn't remotely the same as what you were saying before.

Shall we see what you said the post before on 5/20 at 3:25 PM:

So then why do a lot of people refer to as Episode 4 or 'The first movie' now?

That's just it, they [i]don't], by and large.

Want to talk about shifting arguments now?

Clarification between the trilogy and the movie.

Which you wondered why there would be any confusion, reference your 5/20 2:15 post.

what I'm looking for is something that supports your assertion that "everyone" thinks of it as Ep. 4 or ANH as opposed to just "Star Wars."

I said that most people know the original movie is Episode 4 and/or A New Hope and refer to it as such in discussions about Star Wars over "Star Wars" when talking about the 'first movie'.

Kaak's thread is important not only because no one points out that it should just be Star Wars, but in the rankings people have put there are a lot of Episode 4 or A New Hope in the position for the first movie.

You're such a raging hypocrite. Your favorite tactic in debates is to latch on to anyone else in the thread who agrees with you as if it validates the argument.

Um... it provides support for the argument, but have I claimed they are conclusive proof? But you take your posters or links which agree with you and say, hey I have proof! See, no one knew the movies as Episode 4 or A New Hope before the prequals (and even after then, you say people don't know them as such!)

1. The movie was originally released as just "Star Wars"
2. Despite the addition in the crawl, for 20 years it was still officially titled just "Star Wars" and rereleased as such.
3. For 20+ years, oodles of merchandise, advertisements, branding materials, etc. that bombarded the public for that time only called it "Star Wars"
4. The use of episode numbers in the vernacular didn't start until TPM was released, because it was the first SW movie ever to be explicitley branded by the number.
5. That this pretty much coincides with Lucas's renaming of the original film shows that he was making the push for a public change in how the films were called.
6. In this thread, a sizeable majority have agreed that most people know the original film simply as "Star Wars."
7. A citation of a lengthy, in-depth examination of Star Wars explicitley stating that most people refer to the original films simply as "Star Wars."

All you have offered are "no it isn't" arguments sans support and claiming that a couple of individuals agreeing with you is a worldwide trend.

See, this is what I don't understand. The claiming once again that episode numbers weren't used until TPM (because you assert that they ARE in use now. Was it magic that transformed it? Your assertion that because it was explicitly refered to as Ep 1 and thus people rebranded the first movie as Ep 4 and the others likewise is silly. Why would people rebrand movies because one of the series was called something different?

As for Lucas' renaming, I've already shown that he made the copyright change months before the release of the Special Edition of the first movie and, yet, that didn't have a name change. If Lucas was engaging in a vigerous campaign, why not change the name then? They were only changed with the 2004 DVD collection, where the first movie was titled "Episode 4: A New Hope". But you say beforehand, with the prequals the change came... but since the movies were not rebranded at the time, how could that happen?

As for merchandising and the like. Merchandising with Yoda was accompanied with the name Star Wars, but we know that he was not in the first movie at all.

2+2=5 and all that.

It was funny how you never appeared in a thread where a majority of posters agreed that "2+2=5" could exist depending on the defining of the mathematical system only a few months later... even though I bumped it on your behalf.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I'll add that with Raiders, the official name is "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark." So the series has colloqually become known as the "Indiana Jones" trilogy, but most people still know the original was "Raiders of the Lost Ark," because that's how it was titled/branded/marketed.

Incorrect. That was the video release title. The theater release title was "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You are telling me that you were refering to non-fans as well? Which non-fan knows that Yoda wasn't in the first movie?

I'm no fan. I've seen each of the older movies exactly twice (once when they came out, once when they were re-released -- and I saw the re-releases only because I was accompanying my daughter). I saw the first of the new trilogy once; I didn't see the second one, and probably won't see this one.

But I know which movie Yoda showed up in. I probably know a buch of other crap about the movies, too. The world is not divided between fans and the utterly ignorant, Imran. There are plenty of us in the middle.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Wow... my hat is off to you Rufus. I've recently talked to many people who know Star Wars is out there but know jack about it. They think Yoda was in all of them and Vader is cool (or dumb as one of my co-workers said), they've seen lightsabers... but beyond that... they don't have a clue (one guy thought there were 10 episodes... I told him I wish !!).

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Maybe it has to do with having seen the originals when they came out or something. I dunno.

[Drake Tungsten]

(one guy thought there were 10 episodes... I told him I wish !!).

I don't...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Maybe it has to do with having seen the originals when they came out or something. I dunno.

Perhaps so... but a question. If you weren't a fan, why did you go back to see the 2nd and 3rd released movies? Was it because of friends dragging you along? I'm just curious.

[Lancer]

He went with his daughter. I'm going to see this flick tomorrow!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
I saw the re-releases only because I was accompanying my daughter

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was talking about the originals.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I was talking about the originals.

Oy, this sequel-prequel thing is confusing. I saw Star Wars, ESB, and ROTJ when they came out; I saw them again in the late 90s, with my daughter, when they were rerelease in anticipation of Phantom Menace. I then saw Phantom Menace with my daughter, but didn't bother with Clone Wars and haven't seen Sith. Does that clear it up?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Oh, I was curious about why you saw ESB & ROTJ after seeing the first movie and not being a fan of it. Was it just because it was a flick to see with your friends?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Oh, I was curious about why you saw ESB & ROTJ after seeing the first movie and not being a fan of it. Was it just because it was a flick to see with your friends?

Oh, I see. I liked the first one well enough, so I saw the others, until I finally saw one I didn't like. But I think there's a difference between liking a movie and being a fan, especially when it comes to something like Star Wars.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by JohnT
Imran, you have been so pwned in this argument it's morphing from funny to sad.

how could either of you get 'pwned' in such a silly debate? You've both just been making bald assertions about the general publics perceptions. You would have to go out and take a freaking poll of the general public asking them the name of the first star wars move that was made to really claim any sort of victory. Arguments about what 'most people' think or do or consider require a poll and unless someone can link to one on the net all such claims of 'pwnage' are quite empty indeed.