If your country were to become communist...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Verres
One for yourself and family, one for your mistress and illegitimate children.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Why would you need two houses?

Why would you need computer games? Why would you need entertainment forums? Why would you need theme parks?

A summer house can be something pleasant to have, and I happen to think that a communist society shouldn't be a society made for monks.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
A summer house can be something pleasant to have, and I happen to think that a communist society shouldn't be a society made for monks.

Why can't you just use one? Why do you have to own it? If you own it other people can't use it.

[Verres]

But remember, all the intelligent people have left in search of money....the population has significantly decreased so there is a glut of houses.

[Lancer]

Spif says...

"Tell me why it's ok to let him get away without paying back what he leeched off the taxpayer? If he constributed to French society as a pharamacist, he would do the payback in form of taxes and added growth. In Britain, he won't."


che says...

"The U.S. government has a loan program for going to school. You pay it off either with money or by working in an area where you might be needed, like a doctor in Alaska or a teacher in Camden, etc. We don't consider this a problem in the U.S., why should it be a problem in a communist country? Let people work or pay off their debt to society, and then if they wish to leave, let them."

Spif says it more outright, 'Tell me why its ok to let him get away'...

che lets him leave, but only after he 'pays off his debt to society...'.

So, guys, travel restrictions? You don't let them move out of the country, how about travel abroad? Can they take a vacation to a democracy? You know many won't come back...

[Lancer]

bumpt

[Kidlicious]

I need a vacation. I want to go to PI.

[Master Zen]

Communism is the worst form of government ever invented in modern times. I'd have much rather lived in Nazi Germany than under a real communist regime. Consider me one of the first to flee.

Seriously, I'd like to hear the arguments of the pro-Commies on this board on why Communism is precisely better than liberal democracy or even a fascist state.

Even comparing it to fascism it ends up failing: the economy of a fascist state is capitalist though state interventionist (more akin to a modern social democracy on the scandinavian model - a system which is very appealing IMO). In neither of the two there's freedom of speech or press. In either of the two the secret police can nab your ass any day. Collectivized agriculture has proven to be folly so if you're a farmer or peasant, you'll end up screwed under communism. And then of course there's the fact that true egalitarianism is quite idiotic. People deserve to have according to their merits, not according to equal shares of a pie.

I consider myself a leftist, fully in support of social democracy over laissez-faire capitalism. However if I had to choose one of the two extremes, I'd choose the extreme right without question.

Communism

[Pekka]

One thing combines most commies though... none of them have ever lived under communism. Or next to one. Or even CLOSE to one.

One thing more that combines commies. Most often, they think that it wouldn't matter because they know it wasn't the paradise they wanted, and communism in some parts failed in those places. The problem is, "those places" should read "everywhere". We might even draw some conclusions from that. Of course we might make suggestions and a better version, but reasonable people know it'll be a big **** up, like the previous versions. And not being insane, we don't want to repeat the same mistakes, because the bottom line is, people are greedy bastards, communism, any community based ... they just won't work in real life in big scheme. They just won't. As long as there are people like me, communism won't work, and I'm sorry to tell you commies, lots of people are like me. It's actually you who is the minority, and I should say a very small one too.

Here, we can see some problems, that the thread topic addresses. State educates you. You owe something back? What does that mean? It's anti-freedom, it's oppressing. Why? Because, if you want to get educated, you are in a bind situation. You couldn't get out and explore the world, as an individual as you should have the freedom to do. You need to pay back. Exactly how is that OK? The other option is to 'not get educated then'???

I'm sorry, but this sounds so stupid some people should put a gun in their mouths and pull the trigger. Just kidding, but I'll be the one pulling the trigger if someone would force this on everyone else and my kids. '*tears* but it's not oppressive?! Why is free education oppressive?!'.. well, because you don't OWE anythint to the state, period.
To have a scenario where YOU owe the state, a sum that is not known, but you just owe... what the **** is that? I guess you can't leave, since you also need to pay for the healthcare you recieved all your life, or even the opportunity even if you never went, etc etc.

What a ****ing bad idea.

[Pekka]

I know this is not the way communism would work, but many modern commies do follow similar tought process, like Spiffor showed us already few times in this thread.

Now, commies, I have one message to you. Grow up already. This is not the laalaaland. Money talks, and so does freedom.
Just because you think this is OK for everyone doesn't mean it actually is. You know, the underlining problem of everything that is not democracy. I do my own thinking and I know what's best for me so I don't need a commie to tell me that and decide for the rest of us. Thanks.

[Master Zen]

I think the problem with most wannabe-commies is that they look too much at the utopian version of it as originaly devised and not as the elitist represive reality that 100% of them ended up being. I agree, all of them would likely change their minds if they actually had to spend a month in a communist country.

I'm not a fan of laissez-faire capitalism but I can easily picture a capitalist utopia. It would be one where there the institutional framework equates private benefit into social benefit thereby no person keeps more for himself than what he can give to society. It would also be coupled with a perfect market state in which the invisible hand ensures that resources are allocated perfectly in the economy. Prices are perfect. No monopolies (other than natural ones) exist since the market ensures that perfect competition exists in every industry. The economy is in a perfect state of equilibrium where any deviation no matter how slight is immediately corrected. Everyone has according to what they work for and deserve. All needs are met by the market and the institutional framework ensures that the market never deviates from its purpose.

Wishful thinking though...

... just like Communism

[DaShi]

Some people just claim to be commies in an attempt to appear intelligent or to justify their own capitalist excess. Or just to stick to the man, which is the only respectable reason.

[Odin]

The place where I diverge from many socialists is in the role of government. I am a localist, I dislike too much central planning. I think the role of government in my ideal socialist state should be to preserve the co-op form of control in all economic enterprises, and to use tax incentives and monetary policy to encourage or discourage investment when needed (instead of using quotas like in the SU).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lancer
So, guys, travel restrictions?

No.
1: depends how bad the brain drain affects the country: in the case of France or other EU countries (remember, in today's real world, most countries pay university education with tax money), the brain-exchange goes both ways, so there are few countries that lose a significant amount of brainpower (new EU members may be net losers, and this should be helped).
OTOH, in third world countries where education is a huge expanse relative to the State's budget, and where much of it goes to waste, there should be mechanisms to prevent either the brain-drain, or the loss of money attributed to it.

2: Restrictions to travel aren't the only way to avoid the ill effects of brain-drain. Saying that education is a loan, that you pay while you're working (It's even possible to imagine such system to be egalitarian), will force the expats to pay their debt, even if they're abroad. Just like your debts to private banks follow you when you go to another country.

Edit:

Spif says it more outright, 'Tell me why its ok to let him get away'...

You forgot the most important thing at the end of the sentense: "without paying what his due". If the person pays their due, I have no problem.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I think the problem with most wannabe-commies is that they look too much at the utopian version of it as originaly devised and not as the elitist represive reality that 100% of them ended up being. I agree, all of them would likely change their minds if they actually had to spend a month in a communist country.

Strange. Az lived in the USSR