If your country were to become communist...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Yet even if Castro left power right now, you honestly think the majority of Cubans would be "free" to travel? Neither of those exist in most communist countries so I honestly don't understand why you're arguing this point.

Eventually people will be able to travel.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious

And that's exactly why it's nothing but crap.

Your knowledge of it is apparently not enough for you to make an intelligent decision over whether it is crap or not. Class is not a pre-condition, it's a by-product of market and institutional failure. It's an effect, not a cause.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

so who defines a need? what is a need? does that mean that no one will get ipods because its a want? no one gets a car because its a want? no one gets a guitar amp because its a want?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Your knowledge of it is apparently not enough for you to make an intelligent decision over whether it is crap or not. Class is not a pre-condition, it's a by-product of market and institutional failure. It's an effect, not a cause.

Of course its an effect. Why shouldn't you care about the effects?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
You want more reality? The reality is that communism has been an abject failure leading to the collapse of most of the countries which applied it and which led to the economic ruin of those countries until capitalism stepped in. The only successful communist country in the economic sense, has been China, and it has been so because of the capitalist elements of its economy.

The struggle to implement communism world wide has just begun. Sure there have been set backs. We're always under attack. We have to do things the way we don't want to sometimes to keep up the fight. But we won't give up. And you give too much credit to capitalism. It looks good right now, but the future isn't so bright. One day capitalism will be a thing of the past, and the whole world will be glad.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Of course its an effect. Why shouldn't you care about the effects?

Who on earth said that capitalism doesn't care about the effects?

I stated that in the most basic conception of an economic system, the notion of class doesn't exist since it's divided into producers and consumers in what is called the circular flow of the economy (and government as a 3rd party but which is outside the flow). What this means is that consumers pay for goods which means a transfer of money to the producers. But the producers are also consumers so their consumption also feeds the circle. The government, on the outside, affects the flow by interveneing when necessary.

When does the issue of class arise? Well, an imperfect market structure might enable firms to obtain larger than possible benefits. These are called monopoly benefits. Firms in every industry, even the most competitive ones, obtain monopoly benefits to a greater or lesser degree. Firms who have these benefits can choose to invest them unequally leading to workers not getting paid the value of their production. Likewise differences in the behavior of industries leads to an economy which is fragmented into sectors, some of which are priviledged and some which aren't (in a 3rd world example you can separate the modern export-heavy industries being rather prosperious and the traditional non-export industries being poor).

These are just a few of the examples of why clases exist yet in neither case does class predate the existance of the basis of any economic system: a theoretically classless consumer-producer relationship.

If you don't know this then you really don't know much about economics and have no grounds on asserting that economic theory is "crap"

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious


The struggle to implement communism world wide has just begun. Sure there have been set backs. We're always under attack. We have to do things the way we don't want to sometimes to keep up the fight. But we won't give up. And you give too much credit to capitalism. It looks good right now, but the future isn't so bright. One day capitalism will be a thing of the past, and the whole world will be glad.

Stalin's propaganda machine would have definitely hired you.

I do not buy into Fukuyama's theory that liberal democracy is the ultimate system. History changes. People change. Systems change. I agree with you that capitalism might very well be eventually replaced by a superior system. But it won't be communism. Communism has failed, and you're just deluding yourself in not believing that. As it stands, capitalism is the system more in line with human nature and which has so far worked best. It is not without it's flaws, it is far from perfect. But it's the best we have.

Instead of clinging to the carcass of a failed economic ideology, you should be spending your time on thinking of ways in which capitalism can be improved, because it does have a huge room for improvement. Many of the communist values you espouse can very well be adapted to a capitalist system. Blind belief in an extreme is stupid IMO, capitalism and communism are black and white yet there's a huge area of gray which is far more suited to the world's reality. Just like I'm bashing you commies I'd be bashing anyone with a blind faith in neoliberalism and the market above everything else.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Who on earth said that capitalism doesn't care about the effects?

You did. You said that you don't care about class. Class is an effect of capitalism.

I stated that in the most basic conception of an economic system, the notion of class doesn't exist since it's divided into producers and consumers in what is called the circular flow of the economy (and government as a 3rd party but which is outside the flow). What this means is that consumers pay for goods which means a transfer of money to the producers. But the producers are also consumers so their consumption also feeds the circle. The government, on the outside, affects the flow by interveneing when necessary.

What does this have to do with anything.

When does the issue of class arise? Well, an imperfect market structure might enable firms to obtain larger than possible benefits. These are called monopoly benefits. Firms in every industry, even the most competitive ones, obtain monopoly benefits to a greater or lesser degree. Firms who have these benefits can choose to invest them unequally leading to workers not getting paid the value of their production. Likewise differences in the behavior of industries leads to an economy which is fragmented into sectors, some of which are priviledged and some which aren't (in a 3rd world example you can separate the modern export-heavy industries being rather prosperious and the traditional non-export industries being poor).

These are just a few of the examples of why clases exist yet in neither case does class predate the existance of the basis of any economic system: a theoretically classless consumer-producer relationship.

If you don't know this then you really don't know much about economics and have no grounds on asserting that economic theory is "crap"

I have no idea what you are talking about all of this for. Do you prefer having a class system? Why?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
As it stands, capitalism is the system more in line with human nature and which has so far worked best. It is not without it's flaws, it is far from perfect. But it's the best we have.

This isn't about what I want. It's about how I see the future. You have a lot of confidence in capitalism. I don't. I don't see any way to make it better. Welfare state is not the answer, anymore than globalization or supply side economics is. I see no hope for capitalism. It's unstable and immoral. It will collapse one day and the people of the world will be glad to be done with it.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You did. You said that you don't care about class. Class is an effect of capitalism.

I did? Gee, quote me on where I said that.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious


This isn't about what I want. It's about how I see the future. You have a lot of confidence in capitalism. I don't. I don't see any way to make it better. Welfare state is not the answer, anymore than globalization or supply side economics is. I see no hope for capitalism. It's unstable and immoral. It will collapse one day and the people of the world will be glad to be done with it.

Other than a few loonies like you and Che, most people prefer it over any other system in existance today.

As for it being "immoral", systems are not immoral. It is the people who drive them that are. It is the government who choose to benefit themselves over those they have to serve which are immoral. It is those which make both communist and capitalist systems fail. Don't blame the system, blame the people behind it and I'm sorry to say that those behind communism have been quite immoral themselves.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Other than a few loonies like you and Che, most people prefer it over any other system in existance today.

As for it being "immoral", systems are not immoral. It is the people who drive them that are. It is the government who choose to benefit themselves over those they have to serve which are immoral. It is those which make both communist and capitalist systems fail. Don't blame the system, blame the people behind it and I'm sorry to say that those behind communism have been quite immoral themselves.

Bull****. I could have a system for robbing little old ladies. Both me and the system are immoral.

[Master Zen]

Fine.

Please note that you have not provided a competent argument over

1) that communism is a superior economic system

2) that capitalism is in decline

Instead you have reduced yourself into saying that you "think" that capitalism is in decline and "think" that capitalism will collapse (your evidence of that please?) because you believe it to be immoral (and you never explain exactly why).

Good job. :applause:

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
1) that communism is a superior economic system

2) that capitalism is in decline

Communism is the economic system of the future. Capitalism is an exhaustive economic system. It has to burn itself out. That's all I really have time for tonight. Tomorrow is my last final, so I'm going to study a bit for it now.

[Master Zen]

It better not be an economics final...