If your country were to become communist...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Face it. You don't care about people. You care about the state. BIG difference.

That's ridiculous. Why would anyone care about the state, except to meet other goals?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
LoA defined himself as a useless person, so stop getting all high and mighty.

BTW, capitalism has it's own way of deciding who's useless. In the U.S., they are homeless. In the 3rd world, they starve to death. So get off your high horse.

And freedom is precisely allowing people to decide for themselves what they are or want to be. And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve. If you are homeless, it's because you deserve to be so. If you starve to death, same reason. Of course, that's in an ideal state, in reality, institutional and government flaws ensure that not all the homeless or starving people are there because they deserve to be (in fact, that'd be the minority). Nevertheless the government doesn't single you out personally in a capitalist system.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious


That's ridiculous. Why would anyone care about the state, except to meet other goals?

Ever hear of people benefitting from state, the politburo, the party elite, the intellectual elite and all those who formed the true party structure in most communist countries? People care about the state when they benefit from forming part of the political elite, you would be quite naive to think that people care about the state only because they care about other social goals. That's just so against human nature that it's frightening.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

How in the nine hells does that follow from the former?

Typo. I meant to write "wants". Post edited.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Master Zen
And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve.

The ideal capitalist state is the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class. In such a state, the vast majority of people don't get what they deserve. Most live lives of desperate misery, and a few very wealthy people live far beyond what would be considered obscene. Nazi Germany was an ideal capitalist state for the capitalists.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen


And freedom is precisely allowing people to decide for themselves what they are or want to be. And in an ideal capitalist state people would get what they deserve. If you are homeless, it's because you deserve to be so. If you starve to death, same reason. Of course, that's in an ideal state, in reality, institutional and government flaws ensure that not all the homeless or starving people are there because they deserve to be (in fact, that'd be the minority). Nevertheless the government doesn't single you out personally in a capitalist system.

Holy crap. What kind of a liberal are you? Freedom is being able to actually choose something, not just being allowed to. You are allowed to own a house. That doesn't mean that you are free to do so.

[chequita guevara]

Maybe you should stop telling me what I care about, before I start putting words in your mouth in return, nazi fan boy.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Ever hear of people benefitting from state, the politburo, the party elite, the intellectual elite and all those who formed the true party structure in most communist countries? People care about the state when they benefit from forming part of the political elite, you would be quite naive to think that people care about the state only because they care about other social goals. That's just so against human nature that it's frightening.

You don't seem to have that capacity, but you can't say whether Che does or does not, because you aren't him.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

The ideal capitalist state is the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class. In such a state, the vast majority of people don't get what they deserve. Most live lives of desperate misery, and a few very wealthy people live far beyond what would be considered obscene. Nazi Germany was an ideal capitalist state for the capitalists.

That's the typical ignorant communist vision of capitalism, it is hardly the system which is envisioned by economic theorists. I suggest you read some of them first before making false assertions like "the state that best maximizes the interests of the capitalist class". Even the most basic piece of economic theory does not mention the existence of class, merely the existance of producers and consumers. It's called the circular flow of the economy. I seriously suggest you read this before claiming to know what the ideal capitalist state is.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Maybe you should stop telling me what I care about, before I start putting words in your mouth in return, nazi fan boy.

Now I'm a nazi!

If that's the extent of your debating skills, calling people nazis just because they're arguing against communism, I guess this is all but over.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Master Zen
That's the typical ignorant communist vision of capitalism, it is hardly the system which is envisioned by economic theorists.

I thought you wanted to discuss reality, not theories, nazi.

Anyway, your disavowal of the existence of class as far as capitalist theoreticians is concerned is false. You might with to acquaint yourself with economists from before Ayn Rand.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Now I'm a nazi!

If all I care about is the state, then you're a Nazi. When you start discussing in a less rude fashion, I'll return the effort.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Holy crap. What kind of a liberal are you? Freedom is being able to actually choose something, not just being allowed to. You are allowed to own a house. That doesn't mean that you are free to do so.

Freedom in reality is a combination of both. If you accept the traditional definition, in Cuba, for example, you are not free to travel outside the country because the government prohibits it. If you accept the Amartya Sen definition of freedom, then in the US many people aren't free to travel because they do not have the economic resources to do so.

In a capitalist system you are free to chose to be a bum, to be a slacker, to be a useless loser. The consequences of that is that you likely won't get far in life and thus will lose many of the Sen freedom's that you could possibly later desire.

Yet even if Castro left power right now, you honestly think the majority of Cubans would be "free" to travel? Neither of those exist in most communist countries so I honestly don't understand why you're arguing this point.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Even the most basic piece of economic theory does not mention the existence of class, merely the existance of producers and consumers.

And that's exactly why it's nothing but crap.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I thought you wanted to discuss reality, not theories, nazi.

Anyway, your disavowal of the existence of class as far as capitalist theoreticians is concerned is false. You might with to acquaint yourself with economists from before Ayn Rand.

You want to discuss reality?

Here's reality: capitalism is the system which has given a significant amount of the world's population a standard of living which was unheard of before and which has since been unrivaled by any other economic system ever implemented.

Argue me that.

You want more reality? The reality is that communism has been an abject failure leading to the collapse of most of the countries which applied it and which led to the economic ruin of those countries until capitalism stepped in. The only successful communist country in the economic sense, has been China, and it has been so because of the capitalist elements of its economy.

That's reality Che. Deal with it.