Possible Major Scandal: Border Patrol told to stand down in Arizona

[Ted Striker]

I never said illegals were being paid minimum wages. Depends on a case by case basis.

And yes, those wages will stay the same. They DO stay the same, regardless of the supply and demand of workers.

Only in an acute shortage of workers will McJobs companies actually raise their pay. But that's very rare.

[Whoha]

I'd say removing 1/2 of those workers will cause such an acute shortage.

[Shi Huangdi]

No it isn't. 'Economic security' is a pretext for racism. We don't want those Mexicans to take our jobs! Just like all the anti-globalization rhetoric centering on jobs being located in India is a racist device (or do you really think unions are concerned about accents.. if so some areas of the US are good places not to put call centers).

Argh. Racism is something that COULD lead someone to oppose immigration, or outsourcing as you mentioned. Concerns over the Economic situation in your country is also something that could lead someone to oppose immigration, our outsourcing.

Similarly, opposition to America and it's role in the world and a desire to see American reined in could lead someone to support stronger international law and international institutions such as the UN that we'd be bound to obey. Support for such instititutions could also be due to thinking such institutions and laws are in Amereica's best interests. But without anything to know the deep hidden psychological methods of people in favor of the UN, it would be wrong to assume that it is due to a lack of patroitism on that part. Similarly, without any way of knowing what the deep hidden motives of those who oppose illegal immigration are, it's not justified to accuse them of racism.

If, Imran, you have something concrete but which you can show all of the people who oppose immigration do so because of racism, present it, otherwise stop these BS racism accusations and discuss the issue on it's merits.

It's also more xenophobic than racist. If you were REALLY concerened about border security, you would include the whole big picture.

Fascism

You're accusing me of fascism? I think it's far less in the spirit of a democracy to rather then discuss issues, to just simply scream insults instead and focus on demonizing people who disagree with you. People like you are a big part of the reason there is such a bitter partisan divide in our country today.

We could take precautions based on reality and not preconceived xenophobic, racist, paranoia.

You didn't have any arguments there as to why our intelligence of a possible threat of terrorists coming from Mexico was wrong, but nice job of name-calling

Why are you scared to address the Canadian issue anyway? What about direct access from airports? What about the internal threat from our own citizens?

All of those things are security threats as well. The fact that there are other security threats does not mean we don't address this security threat.

Those jobs are always going to have openings anyway. I don't see people on a waiting list to get a job at McDonald's.

Unemployment effects all wage levels of the economy.

Because some white guy may lose his job? Pffft!

The only person appealing to race here is you. Maybe you don't care if a US citizen who may be White, African American, Asian American, Hispanic, or any other race may lose his job, but most Americans do. Particularly if that job loss was due to unfair competition of American who is subject to US labor law vs. an illegal immigrant who isn't, allowing the employer to treat the illegal immigrant worse, the ability to do which makes hiring the illegal immigrant more favorable.

We actually MAKE arguments.

You're making Ad Hominem arguments, and you're bringing up side issues.

And the response Shi expressed represents the overkill of paranoia and FEAR that is so rampant in this country.

So wanting us to secure a border which isn't secure reperesents overkill. Your arguments are completely rediculous.

See what I mean? You can't even describe these people without associating them with gangs!!

Whoha isn't saying all Hispanics are associated with gangs, but rather some of the people who come across the border may already be associated with a gang, and it would be good if we had more security to prevent those who are criminals from getting into our country.

Even if you pay them the minimum wage, they're still the ones who are going to do the jobs, cause I don't see Bob down the corner wanting to do the work.

You can't enforce the minimum wage on people who are illegals, or any other labor law, because they can't report the problem without risking being found out as being here illegaly.

Only in an acute shortage of workers will McJobs companies actually raise their pay. But that's very rare.

It's basic economics that an increase in the supply of anything leads to a lower prices, including labor.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Argh. Racism is something that COULD lead someone to oppose immigration, or outsourcing as you mentioned. Concerns over the Economic situation in your country is also something that could lead someone to oppose immigration, our outsourcing.

Where was the outcry over outsourcing when jobs were outsources from Massachusetts to Alabama? Or Michigan to Arkansas? Didn't hear any protests then. But NOW, brown people are getting those jobs... so we have to get on our horses and scream bloody murder.

And I love this concern over the 'economic situation' because of illegal immgration. Since they work for less than the min wage, companies benefit, they keep prices down meaning consumers benefit. Illegal immigration actually helps the economic situation. Paying these people min wage would really hurt California's economy as well as other states that rely on this labor.

Perhaps a few workers would benefit by having those min wage jobs, but it'd hurt the rest of the economy. That's why they don't push too hard on illegal immigration. Politicians know that it makes the economy of the Southwest go.

You stop all illegal immigration, by some magic, and the US's GDP falls. Simple as that.

otherwise stop these BS racism accusations and discuss the issue on it's merits.

I am. Only you've fallen for this lie that it's about outsourcing or the economic situation and haven't stepped back and realized that both examples are full of ****. What's left? They ain't white. You even admited hispanics have been subject to racism. But here... apparently it doesn't exist? What?

[DinoDoc]

Can I go to the Mexican border and pick me up a slave?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Whoha
I'd say removing 1/2 of those workers will cause such an acute shortage.

Hence why they are there in the first place.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Ted Striker]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

You're accusing me of fascism? I think it's far less in the spirit of a democracy to rather then discuss issues, to just simply scream insults instead and focus on demonizing people who disagree with you. People like you are a big part of the reason there is such a bitter partisan divide in our country today.

You didn't have any arguments there as to why our intelligence of a possible threat of terrorists coming from Mexico was wrong, but nice job of name-calling

Strawman. Never said it was wrong. Just as I never called you a racist. But you seemed to have adopted the label, so hey, if the glove fits, wear it. Can you prove to me the intelligence is RIGHT? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? How about that September 11th intelligence? Don't you think it was A LITTLE LATE?

I think you are pulling a reverse number, projecting and then turning around trying to stake a moral high ground. But I'm not the one here picking on ultra poor people who are just trying to make a living and not taking away anybody's jobs.

This whole Mexican issue has less to do with economics and intelligence than it has to do with FEAR and ignorance.

Unemployment effects all wage levels of the economy.

The only person appealing to race here is you. Maybe you don't care if a US citizen who may be White, African American, Asian American, Hispanic, or any other race may lose his job, but most Americans do. Particularly if that job loss was due to unfair competition of American who is subject to US labor law vs. an illegal immigrant who isn't, allowing the employer to treat the illegal immigrant worse, the ability to do which makes hiring the illegal immigrant more favorable.

Really? I can go down and sign up for any of those low paying, unskilled jobs that immigrants are taking, and I GUARANTEE you I can find a job within a day. There is no shortage of these jobs whatsoever. They aren't "taking" any jobs from anybody, because there are way too many vacancies available. I mean, please, people aren't crying because they got rejected for a job at Jack in the Box.

So wanting us to secure a border which isn't secure reperesents overkill. Your arguments are completely rediculous.

It's secure enough already. Like I said, we should put those overlapping machine gun nests and then maybe you will feel secure enough in Bethesda Maryland, which we all know is a hotbed for border crossing.

Whoha isn't saying all Hispanics are associated with gangs, but rather some of the people who come across the border may already be associated with a gang, and it would be good if we had more security to prevent those who are criminals from getting into our country.

Criminals come from all borders, and through the air. But the #1 source of criminals in the US, IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. DUH.

You can't enforce the minimum wage on people who are illegals, or any other labor law, because they can't report the problem without risking being found out as being here illegaly.

So? You missed the point. You all are trying to say a labor surplus (due to illegals) keeps wages down. That's just not true, since those wages will stay down regardless of the labor supply. They'll always stay down until the government raises the wage.

It's basic economics that an increase in the supply of anything leads to a lower prices, including labor.

Sorry, that may sound good in 11th grade economics, or on the Rush Limbaugh show, but reality is something different, when it comes to McJobs. Those wages aren't going to fluctuate. They're pretty much static.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can I go to the Mexican border and pick me up a slave?

Your people have alot of practice at it already.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Your people have alot of practice at it already.

Saddly I'm not the one defending the peculiar institution this time or bemoaning the onset of econmomic problems if it ends. Nor am I under somesort of delusion that the government can raise the wages of illegals.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Hence why they are there in the first place.

Thanks for proving my point.

so raise wages to provide an incentive for more people to take those jobs,and to implement what tech improvements can be done.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Saddly I'm not the one defending the peculiar institution this time or bemoaning the onset of econmomic problems if it ends. Nor am I under somesort of delusion that the government can raise the wages of illegals.

Sadly you don't seem to even possess an opinion so shut your mouth until you have one.

Sadly I'm not advocating wages of illegals. You just pulled that out of your ass.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Whoha


so raise wages to provide an incentive for more people to take those jobs,and to implement what tech improvements can be done.

DUH

But there's not enough people to do the work anyway, but improving the lives of people already there is a good thing to do.

[Whoha]

in the aftermath of the aforementioned armageddon border enforcement, such as exactly what happened after the Braceros program was ended.

[Ted Striker]

.

[Whoha]

The Bracero program began in ww2 to recruit people to agriculture during the fighting. It was ended around 1965, and people like you claimed that various agricultural industries would die out. This turned out to not be the case, machines were used instead of people(employment fell from 9k Americans and 36k guest workers" to around 5k Americans for the Tomatoe growers), productivity went up,prices came down,etc,etc.

Bush also agrees with you, but 80+% of the country agrees with me, I guess we're all just racists.