Osama bin Laden's view of the Crusades

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
FOX just reported that a grenade was thrown at Bush in Georgia. Landed 100 ft from him and didn't go off, pin was pulled however.

Damn.

[Lancer]

You would have welcomed President Cheney, che?

[Ned]

Imran, your own post notes that the clergy had to argue to the crusaders the alliance of Constantinople with Salah al-Din in order to convince them to go take Constantinople. No doubt it was their intent to move on to Jerusalem, but that plan was thwarted by the Venetians.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ned
Imran, your own post notes that the clergy had to argue to the crusaders the alliance of Constantinople with Salah al-Din in order to convince them to go take Constantinople. No doubt it was their intent to move on to Jerusalem, but that plan was thwarted by the Venetians.

The original intent was to go through Italy, but the Venetians took over the Crusade from the beginning. The clergy was using SPIN, Ned. They were telling them that stuff, but in reality, they didn't give a damn.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


The original intent was to go through Italy, but the Venetians took over the Crusade from the beginning. The clergy was using SPIN, Ned. They were telling them that stuff, but in reality, they didn't give a damn.

This attitude about Christianity, that it was always a farce or whatever, and that the clergy did not believe in their own religion, is clearly on display in the movie. That is the whole point of this thread.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ned
This attitude about Christianity, that it was always a farce or whatever, and that the clergy did not believe in their own religion, is clearly on display in the movie. That is the whole point of this thread.

When you had middle age Popes who had orgies in the Vatican, I think you can make the claim that plenty of the clergy didn't believe in the dictates of their own religion. In addition you had the 3rd sons who weren't going to inherant anything or weren't going to be knights, go into the clergy, with no interest in church stuff.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


When you had middle age Popes who had orgies in the Vatican, I think you can make the claim that plenty of the clergy didn't believe in the dictates of their own religion. In addition you had the 3rd sons who weren't going to inherant anything or weren't going to be knights, go into the clergy, with no interest in church stuff.

The problem with this is that the crusades occurred at a time of spiritual renewal. I agree that as time went on, the Church fell back into its old ways. The history of the times shows that the clergy were solidly behind taking Jerusalem for religious purposes as were the knights and soldiers who joined them. And, in contrast to the movie, the most ardent of the leaders defending Jerusalem in 1187 were the clergy and the people, who were willing to die for their faith.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
You would have welcomed President Cheney, che?

To be honest, I think I'd prefer a cynical, greedy, corporate whore to someone who thinks he talks with God.

But my damn was about someone throwing a grenade, not the failure to kill him. Bush may be a war criminal and a mass murderer, but the country wouldn't do well to have it's leader assassinated.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
The problem with this is that the crusades occurred at a time of spiritual renewal.

Acutally, the crusades were an attempt to bring about spiritual renewal. For a time they succeeded. By the time of the Fourth Crusade it had petered out.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ned
The problem with this is that the crusades occurred at a time of spiritual renewal. I agree that as time went on, the Church fell back into its old ways. The history of the times shows that the clergy were solidly behind taking Jerusalem for religious purposes as were the knights and soldiers who joined them. And, in contrast to the movie, the most ardent of the leaders defending Jerusalem in 1187 were the clergy and the people, who were willing to die for their faith.

By the 4th Crusade any spiritual renewal as a result of Gregory's reforms were diluted. Individual crusaders believed, but the ones that led them did not. It become more political than spiritual for tham at that point.

Or, what che had said.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Fun facts on the 4th Crusade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

Unexpectedly, emperor Alexius III panicked and fled, and the citizens of Constantinople reluctantly welcomed Alexius Angelus back into the city. He was crowned emperor as Alexius IV, and his father Isaac II was restored as co-emperor.

Although Innocent III had again warned them not to attack, the papal letter was suppressed by the clergy, and the crusaders prepared for their own attack, while the Venetians attacked from the sea; Alexius' army stayed in the city to fight, along with the imperial bodyguard, the Varangians, but Alexius himself fled during the night.

So what you're saying is that someone paid off the Crusaders to back a rival for the throne of the Byzantine empire, then when the emporer fled and the throne was given to the guy they were supposed to back, they attacked anyway? Why? Didn't they also rather pillage Constantinople pretty thoroughly?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Opposition to Alexius IV grew, and one of his courtiers, Alexius Ducas Murtzuphlos, soon overthrew him and had him strangled to death. Alexius Ducas took the throne himself as Alexius V

Different Alexius they were fighting against.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


To be honest, I think I'd prefer a cynical, greedy, corporate whore to someone who thinks he talks with God.

But my damn was about someone throwing a grenade, not the failure to kill him. Bush may be a war criminal and a mass murderer, but the country wouldn't do well to have it's leader assassinated.

/me slowly removes finger from "Report Potential Assassin: Give job at Air America" button.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sophie already pressed the button when you weren't looking

[Agathon]

Georgians can't even kill Bush properly. Someone should nuke that dump.