who is the most evil evil guy

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Malicious intent is required for evil. Wotan is not malicious in anything he does, and eventually attempts to set things right by not letting the giants take Freia.

How about depriving Siegmunde of the means to defend himself from Hunding, preventing Bunhilde from defending Siegmunde, then after allowing Hunding to kill Siegmunde he kills Hunding with a sweep of his hand. Finally he imprisons Brunhilde merely for disobeying him. He sounds rather malicious to me.

Wotan is kinda like Bill Clinton. Amoral? In many ways, yep. Foolish at times? Absolutely. Self-centered? Mmm-hmmm. Conniving? Certainly. But evil? Nah.

I'm afraid I don't buy the notion that Wotan's spear being broken is a result of him breaking the bargain he makes with the giants. The giants accept his alternative, after all. They are happy to have the gold and the ring in lieu of Freia--indeed, it's a better deal for them. So Wotan doesn't break his oath, he just renegotiates the deal.

Yes, but he made the oath in bad faith to begin with, then when essentially caught red handed because Loge was a little late in showing up to complete the duping of the giants, he decides to dig his way out of the hole he got himself into by stealing something.

And the corruption begins with Alberich, not Wotan. It's his theft of the gold that starts all the events. Now Alberich is definitely evil. The gold wants to return to the Rhine, and Wotan is just part of the ring's design. He is an unwitting player in the story of the ring and how it is returned to its home.

But if Wotan had not decided to steal the gold the gods would not have become the subject of the ring's curse, and would not have come to ruin.

[GePap]

Kaiser Sose! (or whowever you spell his last name)

[FrostyBoy]

Saw that movie lastnight

Keyzer Soze

[FrostyBoy]

Oh and if you look at my avatar, you will know why I watched that lastnight.

Maybe.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
How about depriving Siegmunde of the means to defend himself from Hunding, preventing Bunhilde from defending Siegmunde,

Which he only does at the insistence of Fricka. Wotan initially commande Brunnhilde to defend Siegmund from Hunding. But Fricka intervenes because Seigmund is an adulterer and has committed incest with his sister. That violates their natural laws, she says, and thus he can't be defended. Wotan's hands are tied and he can't defend Siegmund, even though he wants to do so.

then after allowing Hunding to kill Siegmunde he kills Hunding with a sweep of his hand.

Hunding was evil and just killed his own son. Wotan is avenging Siegmund's death.

Finally he imprisons Brunhilde merely for disobeying him. He sounds rather malicious to me.

Brunnhilde rebelled against the chief god--she has to be punished. You don't seem to grasp that there are rules at work here that he can't just ignore. Wotan is clearly heartbroken at having to exile her. That's quite apparent in the scene. He's also angry and hot-headed at being defied.

But he cools off, and what's more, he softens her sentence after she pleads with him. He promises that she shall be awakened by a true hero. His farewell to her is one of the most touching moments in all of opera, and certainly is not the expressions of an evil man.

You're taking plot details way out of context and weaving them into a picture that clearly is not painted by the opera. Wotan is never depicted as an evil villain, and I can hardly call any of his actions overtly malicious.

Yes, but he made the oath in bad faith to begin with, then when essentially caught red handed because Loge was a little late in showing up to complete the duping of the giants, he decides to dig his way out of the hole he got himself into by stealing something.

That's a bizarre way of interpreting things that isn't borne out by the actual libretto. Wotan never intended to "cheat" the giants--he was having Loge work on an acceptable alternative.

And his stealing of the gold from Alberich is hardly something to say is really bad. Alberich stole it, is clearly evil, and fashioned the ring to achieve world dominance. Him not having the ring is clearly a good thing.

But if Wotan had not decided to steal the gold the gods would not have become the subject of the ring's curse, and would not have come to ruin.

But he had no real choice in the matter. That's the point of the opera. The first scene of Gotterdammerung shows that much, as it's clear this is all a matter of Fate. The ring has guided his destiny, as it has everyone else's. This isn't a world of Free Will, it's one of Fate.