who is the most evil evil guy

[Spiffor]

Kefka, of course

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Why limit our villainage?

Well, in that case [computer games]:
"Obey the will of Karras, the will of Karras."

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Kefka, of course

Ahh, Franz Kefka, who wrote the story about the manbeatle.

[FrostyBoy]

What about that large mysterious guy from the recent movie Saw?

Isn't it easier to kill a large amount of people when you don't have to see it.

But its harder to kill one person in the most gruesome way you can think of.

So I believe that rules out quite a lot of villians.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Wasn't Wotan supposed to be the god of treaties? Wasn't the magic of his staff that it carried treaties binding the warring nations together? He was the law amongst the gods, but it seems he wasn't much of a role model. For a man of law and order to con evil people into working for him could be considered both stupid and corrupt.

Foolish and corrupt, yes. I said he wasn't a nice guy. The Norse gods are quite human and have all the human faults, magnified by their great power. But the question was, is he evil? No, I don't think so--his intent isn't malicious and he even does the right thing at the expense of his own gain when it comes to protecting Freia from the giants. Sure, he got her in that situation, but were he evil, he would just have taken the ring and left her to Fasolt and Fafner.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No, I don't think so--his intent isn't malicious and he even does the right thing at the expense of his own gain when it comes to protecting Freia from the giants. .

Didn't Fricka have to threaten him in order to get him to do something to save Freia from the giants?

[Verto]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Yeah, what can I say? I'll bet I was your age the last time I saw any of those movies.

Oh, to be in one's prime again.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Didn't Fricka have to threaten him in order to get him to do something to save Freia from the giants?

Nope. She gets ticked at him for making the deal, sure. But Wotan explains that Loge promised him from the start that they'd be able to trick the giants and wouldn't have to give Freia over.

[Tuberski]

Do you have to Operacize every thread your in, Boris?



ACK!

[Dr Strangelove]

Okay, my sources say that at the opening of "Rhinegold" Freya is fleeing the giants who want to take her. Freya places herself under the protection of Wotan and Frika. Wotan, as clan patriarch is obligated to protect her. As the giants approach Thor perpares to do battle with them, but Wotan's "runespear" won't allow this because Wotan had a bargain with them. It's Loge who mentions the gold, in response the giants decide they'd rather have the gold. So Wotan doesn't protect Freya out of the goodness of his heart, but out of obligation. His predicament is that while he made a bargain with the giants, binding, but in bad faith, Freya and the rest of his clan aren't required to go along with it. He comes off as amoral, conniving, and cowardly.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Okay, my sources say that at the opening of "Rhinegold" Freya is fleeing the giants who want to take her. Freya places herself under the protection of Wotan and Frika. Wotan, as clan patriarch is obligated to protect her. As the giants approach Thor perpares to do battle with them, but Wotan's "runespear" won't allow this because Wotan had a bargain with them. It's Loge who mentions the gold, in response the giants decide they'd rather have the gold. So Wotan doesn't protect Freya out of the goodness of his heart, but out of obligation. His predicament is that while he made a bargain with the giants, binding, but in bad faith, Freya and the rest of his clan aren't required to go along with it. He comes off as amoral, conniving, and cowardly.

That source is wrong. Here's the official synopsis from the Met page:

As the sun rises over a mountainous plateau, Fricka and Wotan slumber on a bank of flowers. A fortress, their new home, gleams in the distance. When the two gods awaken, Wotan hails the building as a fulfillment of his dreams. Fricka reproaches her husband for having promised her sister Freia to the giants Fafner and Fasolt as payment for constructing the castle. Wotan replies that he never meant to keep the bargain. As the terrified Freia runs in, pursued by Fafner and Fasolt, Wotan says Loge (fire) will help the gods out of their dilemma. The giants advance to claim their reward. When Wotan protests he made the pact in jest, that they must settle for another fee, Fasolt, smitten with Freia, balks. Fafner decides the goddess must be abducted. As the giants drag her away, Froh (spring) and Donner (thunder) bar their path, Donner brandishing his hammer. Wotan intervenes, saying all treaties are guaranteed on his spear.

Loge, who originated the contract with the giants, and who at Wotan's command has been trying to find a suitable payment in lieu of Freia, materializes in a puff of smoke. The crafty god suggests that perhaps the Rhinegold might be an acceptable substitute. He then relates how Alberich stole the hoard, forging it into a Ring through which he can gain world dominance.

So all along Wotan has never had the intention of giving over Freia. I'm not sure where this "obligation" notion comes from. Perusing the libretto, I see no mention of it. Wotan makes it clear several times that he has never intended to hand over Freia, even from the start. Why else would he have Loge already looking for an alternative?

Wotan is, to a degree, amoral and certainly is conniving. But I don't agree he's cowardly (indeed, much else in the Ring goes against that). And he is definitely not evil.

[Dis]

what is evil?

we must address that to completely answer the question.

Is it the guy who kills the most people? Then my answer is best . The guy who relases the virus in 12 Monkeys. Though Darth Vader has probably killed more people (it just doesn't say exactly how many).

Sure Darth Vader essentually gave himself up (though I don't believe he ever repented), but that doesn't change the fact all those people are dead.

Is evil a serial killer who sees nothing wrong with dismembering and eating their victims?

Is it someone who is conniving and will do anything for power (that would make our president evil )

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


That source is wrong. Here's the official synopsis from the Met page:



So all along Wotan has never had the intention of giving over Freia. I'm not sure where this "obligation" notion comes from. Perusing the libretto, I see no mention of it. Wotan makes it clear several times that he has never intended to hand over Freia, even from the start. Why else would he have Loge already looking for an alternative?

Wotan is, to a degree, amoral and certainly is conniving. But I don't agree he's cowardly (indeed, much else in the Ring goes against that). And he is definitely not evil.

If amoral and conniving isn't evil, what is? I might also add that for Wotan to make a bad faith bargain was for him to have embraced his downfall. He was the keeper of the runespear. IIRC myth required that if the bearer should be dishonest the spear would break and he would lose his power. In an indirect way that is what happened. Wotan's spear was broken and his power lost. Yes, I know that his spear was broken by Siegfreid, and not obviously as a direct consequence of his treachery, but his bad faith deal was the act that triggered the entire series of tragic events. Since Wotan sort of represents governance in this story, the Ring Cycle is a morality tale unveiling the consequences of corruption.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
If amoral and conniving isn't evil, what is?

Malicious intent is required for evil. Wotan is not malicious in anything he does, and eventually attempts to set things right by not letting the giants take Freia.

Wotan is kinda like Bill Clinton. Amoral? In many ways, yep. Foolish at times? Absolutely. Self-centered? Mmm-hmmm. Conniving? Certainly. But evil? Nah.

I'm afraid I don't buy the notion that Wotan's spear being broken is a result of him breaking the bargain he makes with the giants. The giants accept his alternative, after all. They are happy to have the gold and the ring in lieu of Freia--indeed, it's a better deal for them. So Wotan doesn't break his oath, he just renegotiates the deal.

And the corruption begins with Alberich, not Wotan. It's his theft of the gold that starts all the events. Now Alberich is definitely evil. The gold wants to return to the Rhine, and Wotan is just part of the ring's design. He is an unwitting player in the story of the ring and how it is returned to its home.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tuberski
Do you have to Operacize every thread your in, Boris?



ACK!

Hey, at least this conversation is relevant. Wouldn't want to be accused of threadjacking again.