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**Gibsie** · April 8, 2005, 17:08

It won't let me install on account of not having IE6 or something. I don't care.

**Locutus** · April 8, 2005, 17:45

Muggins is not what MSN needs. What MSN needs is to dock on the side of the screen, like ICQ. To display the time messages were sent, like ICQ. To allow you to send messages when someone is offline, like ICQ. To have a usable history function, like ICQ. To give you a sound alert when you receive a message while gaming, like ICQ. To not send the message when pressing Enter so you can type multi-line messages hassle-free, like ICQ. To not default to online status after reboot but remember the previous setting, like ICQ. To display people who are online on top regardless of what group they're in, like ICQ. To allow you to email all members of a group, like ICQ. To support exchanging of contact lists, like ICQ. To be compatible with ICQ, like ICQ.

In other words, people should stop using that crappy program and recognize ICQ's superiority

**Maquiladora** · April 8, 2005, 17:49

Yeah I wish MSN had sound notification in games, or I wouldnt use ICQ, even Yahoo has it. I think they just fixed the default status thing after reboot in this new version though.

**Asher** · April 8, 2005, 18:44

I stopped using ICQ after ICQ98. The only thing ICQ is superior to is crashability, ugly interfaces, non-functional interfaces, annoying names "XtraZ!!!!!", etc.

ICQ was the predominant messenger for almost everyone I know, and I know of no one in real life who uses ICQ anymore. Those that do use ICQ do so with Trillian or GAIM.

Originally posted by Locutus
Muggins is not what MSN needs. What MSN needs is to dock on the side of the screen, like ICQ.

Wouldn't know, never used that in ICQ, nor do I use it in clients like GAIM that I use at work.

To display the time messages were sent, like ICQ.

Are you that forgetful?

1) The message history shows the date/time messages were sent
2) It says when the last message was received on the bottom of the screen

Why would you need the time beside each message? That's something I've always found exceptionally useless.

To allow you to send messages when someone is offline, like ICQ.

Define "instant message". Clearly you and I have different opinions of what it is.

When you send a message to someone not online on MSN, it composes an email to them. When you log on with MSN, it tells you if you have unread email.

Further, the user has an option if they want the offline messages to be sent to their cell phone as a SMS message. That's what I do. I don't want people sending me full-out messages when I'm not online -- that's what email is for. If I am online, send me an instant message.

Two different functionalities, and I actually never did like that with ICQ. In fact, ICQ's offline messages were unreliable back-in-the-day I used them.

To have a usable history function, like ICQ.

It does.

To give you a sound alert when you receive a message while gaming, like ICQ.

So turn off the option that suppresses alerts while you game? That might help.

To not send the message when pressing Enter so you can type multi-line messages hassle-free, like ICQ.

CTRL-Enter does that. "Enter" sends. Since most messages are not multiline, having "enter" by default send the message seems far more practical to me. It's another example where ICQ is a terrible program from a usability perspective. It has an identity crisis -- ICQ is so full of crap that it forgets it is an instant messenging program.

To not default to online status after reboot but remember the previous setting, like ICQ.

MSN7 does that.

To display people who are online on top regardless of what group they're in, like ICQ.

Contacts -> Sort Contacts By -> Online/Offline Status

I can see how you missed that one, it's kind of hidden!

To allow you to email all members of a group, like ICQ.

Have you tried right-clicking on the group.

To support exchanging of contact lists, like ICQ. To be compatible with ICQ, like ICQ.

The last thing I want is for ICQ and MSN to be compatible. ICQ is spam-infested hell with a horrible network design that opens itself up to such crap...

ICQ is stale, dated, and obsolete. The only people using it these days seem to be Europeans. I have no explanation why.

ICQ is the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen, even crappier than RealPlayer.

Shame on you.

**Locutus** · April 8, 2005, 19:40

Originally posted by Asher
I stopped using ICQ after ICQ98. The only thing ICQ is superior to is crashability, ugly interfaces, non-functional interfaces, annoying names "XtraZ!!!!!", etc.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about MSN.

ICQ was the predominant messenger for almost everyone I know, and I know of no one in real life who uses ICQ anymore. Those that do use ICQ do so with Trillian or GAIM.

Everyone I know who actually knows how to use a PC (i.e. everyone excluding family, neighbours and other PC n00bs etc) use ICQ because they realize its superiority. Only those n00bs that don't know better and use MS products for everything use MSN.

Are you that forgetful?

I shouldn't have to remember it, plus, yes, I have many things on my head, I really can't be arsed to remember. More importantly, my PC is on all day, but I'm not nearly always using it. I want to be able to see at a glance who sent what when, especially when I wasn't there (and especially in multi-person conversations).

I should only have to use the history function for archival purposes, but in MSN I have to use it on a daily basis.

MSN's history function (a) was non-existant until very recently (b) is probably the most unusable history function I've ever used (it's a small miracle it at least has a basic search function) (c) is ridiculously hard to find (most people don't even know it exists at all) and get to, especially if you consider that MS makes it so important by not including timestamps on messages.

Define "instant message". Clearly you and I have different opinions of what it is.

Most of my email is spam. The last thing I need is more spam. And emails consisting of oneliners are worse than spam. Plus, most of the people I know use their msn/hotmail address only as dump for spam so email sent to their accounts will never be read. I use my POP3 email adress for MSN, so I don't get a message when I have unread mail, and I only check my mail once a day (I spend way to much time on email already, not gonna keep track of that all day). Finally, if I want to email someone I can frackin' well decide so myself, I don't need MSN to decide for me if I should email or use something else.

Two different functionalities, and I actually never did like that with ICQ. In fact, ICQ's offline messages were unreliable back-in-the-day I used them.

The more useful functionality a messenger supports, the better. Of course, that's something MS doesn't realise, they're content adding utterly useless crap like smilies and such. I'll use one of those crappy java chat programs if I want 'funny' animated smilies...

ICQ has never failed me in the delivery department, which is more than I can say for MSN.

It does.

You call that usable?

It takes like 6 or 7 mouse-clicks to get to (which is 5 or 6 too many), the layout is confusing, it doesn't have any sort or filter options, long messanges force you to sidescroll to read them (that's proof MSN is evil right there), it does not allow exporting of messages, it does not ANY actions on individual messages or on a selection of messages (delete, forward, reply, print, etc -- and there's no UI option for copying, you have happen to know the keyboard short-cut, which most MSN users (read: n00bs) don't), etc, etc...

So turn off the option that suppresses alerts while you game? That might help.

So where in MSN is this option then? If it exists at all, it's not working, unless they fixed it recently...

CTRL-Enter does that. "Enter" sends. Since most messages are not multiline, having "enter" by default send the message seems far more practical to me.

A lot of my messages *are* multi-line, and Enter has since the beginning of time (well, since the invention of type writers) represented new line, changing that functionality is plain evil.

MSN7 does that.

Well, about time. At this pace, MSN might just become remotely useable by about 2047...

Contacts -> Sort Contacts By -> Online/Offline Status

I can see how you missed that one, it's kind of hidden!

Thank you, finally! Yes, it is hidden, on ICQ it's a nice clear button on the 'front page' and also the default option, which is quite helpful for something that 99,99% of all users will want to use as default...

Have you tried right-clicking on the group.

Yup, that allows you to send an IM to everyone who's online, but not to email.

The last thing I want is for ICQ and MSN to be compatible. ICQ is spam-infested hell with a horrible network design that opens itself up to such crap...

Spam invested? I've never experienced any spam on ICQ and I've used it for almost its entire existance...

ICQ is stale, dated, and obsolete.

It's functional and userfriendly. It does everything MSN does, did it long before MSN did and has always done it 20 times better.

The only people using it these days seem to be Europeans.

Funny, a good number of people (if not a majority) on my contact list are from non-European countries. The people on my MSN list are without exception European (of course, most of them are family, neighbours and other PC n00bs who I help keep their PCs running IRL, so that's not really a fair comparison).

I have no explanation why.

Maybe because we actually recognize quality when we see it, rather than follow the Walmart herd?

ICQ is the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen, even crappier than RealPlayer.

Funny, that's just how I feel about MSN. In fact RealMedia is a heavenly piece of software compared to MSN...

**Adagio** · April 8, 2005, 19:48

Originally posted by Locutus
Muggins is not what MSN needs. What MSN needs is to dock on the side of the screen, like ICQ. To display the time messages were sent, like ICQ. To allow you to send messages when someone is offline, like ICQ. To have a usable history function, like ICQ. To give you a sound alert when you receive a message while gaming, like ICQ. To not send the message when pressing Enter so you can type multi-line messages hassle-free, like ICQ. To not default to online status after reboot but remember the previous setting, like ICQ. To display people who are online on top regardless of what group they're in, like ICQ. To allow you to email all members of a group, like ICQ. To support exchanging of contact lists, like ICQ. To be compatible with ICQ, like ICQ.

I agree with almost everything here...
The "send msg when not online" is defently something I miss in messenger

When you send a message to someone not online on MSN, it composes an email to them. When you log on with MSN, it tells you if you have unread email

It does? So far neither me nor any of my friends has recieved any emails of such...
Any even if it did so it wouldn't be useful at all since most of my friends uses and "just spam" email adress to log in to messenger, so they never actually reads the mails they get on that address

Originally posted by Locutus
In other words, people should stop using that crappy program and recognize ICQ's superiority

Same do I, but none of those I talk to on regular basis uses ICQ anymore so I've stopped using it too

**Mercator** · April 8, 2005, 19:49

Re: MSN Messenger 7 is now out

Originally posted by Asher
A new version of "MessPatch" is due out very soon to the latest build, which lets you remove ads and customize other stuff. You can download it now, it's got an Update feature for when the new version is posted: http://www.mess.be/pafiledb/pafiledb...ownload&id=618

And if you can't wait for that, get the A-Patch instead:

http://apatch.tk/

**Locutus** · April 8, 2005, 19:51

Thank you, finally! Yes, it is hidden, on ICQ it's a nice clear button on the 'front page' and also the default option, which is quite helpful for something that 99,99% of all users will want to use as default...

Never mind, that still doesn't give me what I want. That just gives you a choice between using groups or not using groups. I want to use groups but still have all online contacts on top. Of course, such an idea must be outrageous, why would anyone want to do that? No reason for MS to add that option... especially considering it's default on every other IM program I've ever tried

**Mercator** · April 8, 2005, 20:02

That's also possible. Tick the "Group Offline Contacts Together" checkbox and your online contacts will appear on top (ordered by group) and all offline will appear at the bottom.

**Locutus** · April 8, 2005, 20:13

Originally posted by Mercator
That's also possible. Tick the "Group Offline Contacts Together" checkbox and your online contacts will appear on top (ordered by group) and all offline will appear at the bottom.

Thanks for the tip, but still not quite what I want. That sorts the people who are online, but not the ones who are offline...

**Asher** · April 8, 2005, 20:27

Originally posted by Locutus
I shouldn't have to remember it, plus, yes, I have many things on my head, I really can't be arsed to remember.

Why does it matter? All you need is the sequence. If you need to look up anything other than when the last message is, view the history. That's not a very common occurance.

MSN's history function (a) was non-existant until very recently (b) is probably the most unusable history function I've ever used (it's a small miracle it at least has a basic search function) (c) is ridiculously hard to find (most people don't even know it exists at all) and get to, especially if you consider that MS makes it so important by not including timestamps on messages.

(a) doesn't matter
(b) is rhetoric
(c) is stupid -- honestly, what are you talking about? When you open a new chat, it opens the previous conversation in a gray font for reference. To access the full history, right click on the Contact and select "View Message History". Or in the conversation window, File -> View Message History". What is the problem in its usability, or in its accessibility?

Most of my email is spam. The last thing I need is more spam. And emails consisting of oneliners are worse than spam. Plus, most of the people I know use their msn/hotmail address only as dump for spam so email sent to their accounts will never be read. I use my POP3 email adress for MSN, so I don't get a message when I have unread mail, and I only check my mail once a day (I spend way to much time on email already, not gonna keep track of that all day). Finally, if I want to email someone I can frackin' well decide so myself, I don't need MSN to decide for me if I should email or use something else.

The point is, it's not an "instant message" if you send it to someone offline. Plus I really don't trust the ICQ servers, way too many offline messages were lost of mine for it to be useful.

Instant messenging is, by definition, talking to someone instantly while they're online. Sending text to someone who is offline is accomplished by email. That's what the two things were designed for.

There's a reason ICQ is about the only messenger that has "offline messenging", and there's a reason most people just don't care.

The more useful functionality a messenger supports, the better. Of course, that's something MS doesn't realise, they're content adding utterly useless crap like smilies and such. I'll use one of those crappy java chat programs if I want 'funny' animated smilies...

The thing is, ICQ doesn't get it. MSN's marketshare is increasing and ICQ has eroded.

As for adding in "utterly useless crap"...that's what ICQ does. MSN is designed around a -- and I cringe using this word -- user experience. It's something Apple has been doing for a while now to great success, and MS started doing with WinXP and new versions as well.

ICQ just looks ugly and dated, even the latest version. The interface design is a nightmare -- there are buttons everywhere! The interface is my primary beef. It's just terrible, classic text-book case of a bad interface.

Even fundamentals of it, like having an "ICQ number" -- why the hell do I need a number? flashbacks to Compuserve....44327484752@compuserve.com emails.

The icons are all terrible -- what the hell does the guy "leaping" icon in the top right mean, for example?

There's an overload of buttons without a clear sense of focus...

The list goes on and on.

You call that usable?

It takes like 6 or 7 mouse-clicks to get to (which is 5 or 6 too many)

Right click -> View Message History...

Don't see how it can get any easier. Maybe you have terrible mouse accuracy, I don't know how else to explain your 6-7 figure.

the layout is confusing

How the hell is it confusing?

It's a table with 5 columns: Date, Time, From, To, Message

it doesn't have any sort or filter options

Eh? Sort by what? Filter by what?

long messanges force you to sidescroll to read them (that's proof MSN is evil right there)

Err, no, they linewrap. This is proof that you don't know what you're talking 'bout right here.

it does not allow exporting of messages

Why do you need to export it? The message archives are saved in an XML file with public schemas, and you can copy/paste it when needed. I don't understand why there's an export requirement.

it does not ANY actions on individual messages or on a selection of messages (delete, forward, reply, print, etc

That's one reason why I hated ICQ -- it overcomplicates something simple.

If you want that kind of functionality, just use frickin' email. Why do you want to print a single message...I guess I can see where ICQ's target demographic is -- users that prefer overly complicated, buggy crap that misses the point.

So where in MSN is this option then? If it exists at all, it's not working, unless they fixed it recently...

Under the "General" tab...the first one the Options show you.

A lot of my messages *are* multi-line, and Enter has since the beginning of time (well, since the invention of type writers) represented new line, changing that functionality is plain evil.

Again, since the vast majority of instant messages are single-line for most people, it makes sense to minimize the amount of work needed to send. It makes much more sense to type then hit "enter" to continue than tab-enter...

The typewriter comparison is stupid on its face. I don't see you saying it's just plain evil not to have to carriage return after every line either...

[quote]Thank you, finally! Yes, it is hidden, on ICQ it's a nice clear button on the 'front page' and also the default option, which is quite helpful for something that 99,99% of all users will want to use as default...

Yup, that allows you to send an IM to everyone who's online, but not to email.

Why are you wanting to email everyone through an Instant Messenger group?

Do you not understand the concept of an email client?

Spam invested? I've never experienced any spam on ICQ and I've used it for almost its entire existance...

Holy hell, you have to be kidding me. I hadn't logged onto my ICQ account for years, logged in and had 50 messages from "girls" asking me to check out their "photo galleries"...

It's functional and userfriendly. It does everything MSN does, did it long before MSN did and has always done it 20 times better.

You kill me.

Take an interface design course, look at it from a psychology perspective -- the interface is a classically terrible interface.

Funny, that's just how I feel about MSN. In fact RealMedia is a heavenly piece of software compared to MSN...

All you have to do is watch the ridiculously stupid and unprofessional "ICQ5 feature tour" with the woman with a peculiar accent to know all you need to know.

ICQ is coded by inept programmers who still can't "get it right" after having a HUGE headstart on everyone else, and a rabid fanbase of core users who don't see just how bad it is.

**Asher** · April 8, 2005, 20:30

Originally posted by Locutus
Never mind, that still doesn't give me what I want. That just gives you a choice between using groups or not using groups. I want to use groups but still have all online contacts on top. Of course, such an idea must be outrageous, why would anyone want to do that? No reason for MS to add that option... especially considering it's default on every other IM program I've ever tried

Jesus christ. You've been able to do that forever.

Contacts -> Sort Contacts By -> Groups

Then...get this...

Contacts -> Sort Contacts By -> Group Offline Contacts together.

Tada?

The problem clearly isn't with MSN here, it's with a stubborn user who doesn't want to accept change and finds stupid ways to do so.

**Asher** · April 8, 2005, 20:31

Originally posted by Locutus
Thanks for the tip, but still not quite what I want. That sorts the people who are online, but not the ones who are offline...

It puts all of the offline people at the bottom in a group called "Offline".

All of the other groups exist, with only online or mobile people. To exclude mobile people...well, I'm sure you can figure that one out. Or not.

**St Leo** · April 8, 2005, 22:00

Originally posted by Asher
The thing is, ICQ doesn't get it. MSN's marketshare is increasing and ICQ has eroded.

MSN is bundled with Windows. Microsoft is leveraging its monopoly to increase MSN's mindshare.

Even fundamentals of it, like having an "ICQ number" -- why the hell do I need a number? flashbacks to Compuserve....44327484752@compuserve.com emails.

Uh, MSN's email-address-as-id doesn't make much sense either.

Gaim does everything I need, but my parents use a webcam to chat with people of their generation, so I have MSN installed for them.

Oh, and I have Gaim customized to do a new-line on Enter and send on Ctrl+Enter. I like sending multi-line messages.

Announcement

MSN Messenger 7 is now out

MSN Messenger 7 is now out

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