Mugabe at Papal funeral

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara Unless you were Black.

Come on now Che, do you believe that colonies administered by the EU would have the same problems that the colnoies of the early twentieth century experienced? There's a gut reaction against colonialism, but I think that's largely because of the way colonies were run. Times have changed, and I imagine that things would be much different. They couldn't be worse than the current situations in some countries.

[chequita guevara]

Biafra.

Western Europe created the situation in the first place. I hardly see how they could be expected to make it better.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Unless you were Black.

Because they're so well off under Mugabe

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Because they're so well off under Mugabe

Like they were so much better off under Rhodesia.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Biafra.

Western Europe created the situation in the first place. I hardly see how they could be expected to make it better.

They could do things like foster civil society, help create stabilized democracy, help introduce the notion of non-tribal/ethnic politics, general nation building things. I'm not advocating that they actually go into Africa, I just think that Africa would be better off if they did.

edit: Also, I'm sure that EU administered colonies would be much better at food and resource distribution than are the current states... probably would be better at containing the AIDS problem and addressing environmental concerns as well.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Like they were so much better off under Rhodesia.

They'd certainly be better off administered by the EU.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wycoff
They could do things like foster civil society, help create stabilized democracy, help introduce the notion of non-tribal/ethnic politics, general nation building things.

That's true. It's more likely the case, however, that Europe would do to Africa what they've done in Yugoslavia, keep the peace and take the wealth.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's true. It's more likely the case, however, that Europe would do to Africa what they've done in Yugoslavia, keep the peace and take the wealth.

Even if things are as you say, I'd bet that in 50 years Kosovo or Bosnia would be better places to live than Sudan, Zimbabwe, DR Congo, etc. Ensuring peace and delegitimizing political violence are prerequsites to the development of a country. If those things are missing, a country will never be able to right itself.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That's true. It's more likely the case, however, that Europe would do to Africa what they've done in Yugoslavia, keep the peace and take the wealth.

I'd much rather someone take the wealth and NOT keep the peace

[Seeker]

The recent NYT article (search for it yerself) quoted many blacks interviewed longing for the return of white rule under the 'eating before voting' concept.

anecdotal but still.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wycoff
Would Africa be better off it it were still run by colonial powers?

No. The Portuguese, for instance, treated their colonies (as the Belgians did the Congo) as a great cashcow, with little investment or development of infrastructure.


Even after the colonial powers moved out, they were still happy to encourage despotism (as long as companies at home profited from it) in 'strategic' areas such as Zaire, Nigeria, South Africa, Namibia, East Africa- and the Europeans were in some cases simply replaced by the U.S. and the Soviet Union playing an African version of the Great Game.


Sorry, che, I still don't buy it- how many people do you think have died as a result of Mugabe's policies, both through political oppression and ethnic cleansing, and his ruinous handling of the economy and his regime's encouragement of kleptocracy ?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

We should invade, occupy and annex them!

Then you'd give everyone in the Catholic world a causus belli against you.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Like they were so much better off under Rhodesia.

Many were if not most.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So someone who votes for a pro-choice candidate can be denied communion, but a murdering tyrant who oppresses his people gets a free pass? Nice priorities.

That is the worst part of it. They'll threaten to excommunicate a Presidential candidate because he publically says he will not challenge Roe vs Wade (not that there is any challenge to make since even John Ashcroft agreed it was settled law) and they'll tell citizens who voted for a pro-choice candidate that they can't take communion but they'll hobnob with the worst third world dictators.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Dauphin
JP2 also reprimanded Blair and Bush for the war in Iraq "a defeat for humanity", it didn't stop them turning up as representatives.

Bush apparently was booed by the crowd after he was seen on a large screen television at the ceremony.