Mugabe at Papal funeral

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, he's a minor violater of human rights. Is he a thug? Yes. Does he torture and murder people? Yes. Is he in the top ten of the worst dictators in the world? Not a chance. And compared to past dictators, the guy is tame.

Let's put it this way. If China's president went to the funeral, would you be spitting bullets? I'd wager not, even though the dictatorship in China is probably the worst in the world today. But then, China doesn't steal white people's farms.

Last time I checked, China's president wasn't a Catholic, and neither are most of the top dictators. The RCC has a means of censuring Mugabe, but they don't.

Mugabe's violations are not "minor." If they were, he wouldn't have the huge file at AI that he does. Funny that you consider torture and murder and rape "minor."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
If they were, he wouldn't have the huge file at AI that he does. Funny that you consider torture and murder and rape "minor."

#1, AI isn't perfect. Their cultural biases make it into their reports.

#2 The existence of torture, murder, and rape isn't sufficient to induce such venomous rhetoric for most people. After all, I don't hear such vitriol about say, the NYPD. Okay, there's a certain quantitative difference between New York and Zimbabwe. That's what I'm getting at. I can think of five countries in North Africa alone off the top of my head that are worse violaters of human rights than Zimbabwe: Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, and Mali. Then there's the rest of Africa, plus the Central and Eastern Asia, the Middle East, etc.

So I still have to wonder, when there are all these other countries with far worse human rights records which go without comment, why is it that Mugabe is the target of continual hate fests? Given he's far from among the worst dicators in the Africa, let alone the world as a whole, the only difference between him and the rest is that he is Black and that he is victimizing whites (among others).

[atomant]

1929 treaty between the vatican and italy guarranttees freedom of movement for all people (I believe) wishing to see the vatican.

Mugabe regulary uses United Nations conferences (traveling to New York), funerals etc to travel around the world and prove to his people at home how smart he is at busting US, EU UK sanctions. Besides if he could not go to europe, where would his wife shop?

[atomant]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


#1, AI isn't perfect. Their cultural biases make it into their reports.

#2 The existence of torture, murder, and rape isn't sufficient to induce such venomous rhetoric for most people. After all, I don't hear such vitriol about say, the NYPD. Okay, there's a certain quantitative difference between New York and Zimbabwe. That's what I'm getting at. I can think of five countries in North Africa alone off the top of my head that are worse violaters of human rights than Zimbabwe: Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, and Mali. Then there's the rest of Africa, plus the Central and Eastern Asia, the Middle East, etc.

So I still have to wonder, when there are all these other countries with far worse human rights records which go without comment, why is it that Mugabe is the target of continual hate fests? Given he's far from among the worst dicators in the Africa, let alone the world as a whole, the only difference between him and the rest is that he is Black and that he is victimizing whites (among others).

Mugabe killed 15,000 of his own citizens during the matabeleland massacres in the mod 80's. These people were not white. Does he qualify as a suitably brutal dictator now?

Further, the use of state machinery for rape, murder or torture pretty much negates the comparison with NYC. WHen based on your 'five other countries' analysis, it sounds like mugabe is (to quote Dr. Evil) the coke lite of dictators "Just one calaorie, not evil enough."

Having lived there, I can assure that his victims are not all white, 99% of them are black. I humby and respectfully request that you look at www.zimbabwesituation.com to gain a greater insight into the situation there. Not every event in the world is cast in black, white or even red.

[Provost Harrison]

They should have arrested the bastard when they had the chance...

[Seeker]

The race issue in Zimbabwe is a creation of Mugabe's propaganda, swallowed by our media.

The main victims of Robert Mugabe have not been the microscopic white minority, many of whom were able to escape via friends and money.

Mugabe's victims are the black african people of his country, the MDC party supporters, the ordinary food-buying zimbabwean, NOT some pith-helmeted mythical colonial elite who no longer exist in that country.

The idea that people hate Mugabe because 'he targets whites' is erroneous and contains the latent racism of the idea that somehow the ordinary blacks supports or condone mugabe because he is 'one of them'. Pure tribalism and projection of tribalism.

Yes there are and have been worse dictators. But mugabe is happening NOW. And also, the striking thing is the suddeness of zimbabwes fall, the distance from where it is now in terms of democracy, food, safety, medicine, etc and where it was even a few years ago. Sudan has always been a place where life is nasty, brutish and short. Zimbabwe used to be a place people went to for fun, with thriving businesses, courts, hospitals, etc.

We are wired to look for narrative as a species, so it's natural that a 'fall from grace' like the case of zimbabwe strikes more of a chord than sudan, not to mention that sudan simply hasn't had much media exposure yet to talk about what with Iraq and all.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Seeker
not to mention that sudan simply hasn't had much media exposure yet to talk about

Aha. The same's true of Congo, of course. It's started making the news now, but it took millions of deaths to do it.

The capricious media....

[Drogue]

Re: Mugabe at Papal funeral

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
What the hell? Who invited this monster?

He's under an EU travel ban--does this mean they can arrest him for being there? God, I hope so.

His presence is a slap in the face to JP2.

The cardinals decreed that anyone who wished to receive communion would, and the funeral was open to all. Nobody invited him.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No, he's a minor violater of human rights. Is he a thug? Yes. Does he torture and murder people? Yes. Is he in the top ten of the worst dictators in the world? Not a chance. And compared to past dictators, the guy is tame.

Tell that to the victims of the Matabeleland Massacres:

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/trelford.html

I'm sorry, but I find the 'not quite as bad as the next despotic thug' argument quite unconvincing.

Ethnic cleansing ? Check.

Oppression and exile of political and ethnic opponents ?

Check.

Use of paramilitary militias to terrorize minorities ?

Check.

State terror using the army and security police ?

Check


Widespread corruption on the Mobutu kleptocratic scale ?

Check.


Virtual disappearance of regular food supplies and a lowering of the life expectancy to the low thirties ?

Check.


Corrupt forcible sequestration of private land and resultant cronyism ?

Check.


I could continue, but I think the gist is fairly clear.

[Dinner]

Since Saddam is out of the picture now and no one seems to care about the thuggishness of the various Central Asia dictatorships Mugabe (along with Kim in NK and Asad in Syria) basically is now in the top tier of brutish tyrants.

[Wycoff]

Would Africa be better off it it were still run by colonial powers? I'm sure that there are some parts that would be (provided the colonial powers act according to today's standards of respect and not like the Beligians in the Congo)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wycoff
Would Africa be better off it it were still run by colonial powers?

Not bloody likely.

[Kuciwalker]

Zimbabwe would be.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I'm sorry, but I find the 'not quite as bad as the next despotic thug' argument quite unconvincing.

...

I could continue, but I think the gist is fairly clear.

You also miss the point. I'm not arguing Mugabe should be ignored. I think all the dictators should be overthrown. However, as I have written in this thread repeatedly the reaction and vitriol to Mugabe is disproportionate to the man's actual crimes when compared to other dictatorships that actually exist: SLORC, the PRC, the DPRK, and on and on, etc. Hell, there's virtual silence about SLORC, and they have been committing genocide against the Karen people for over a decade, as well as practicing slavery. All anyone ever hears about, though, is the former President's daughter being held under house arrest. UNITA in nearby Angloa has killed over one million people!!!! Where's the outrage!?!

But Mugabe, this is the guy that people act about is if he were the anti-Christ. In absolute terms, yeah, Mugabe should be swinging from a lamppost. By African despot terms, he's a school-yard bully.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Zimbabwe would be.

Unless you were Black.