The equal strengths of Star Wars and Star Trek

[GePap]

Originally posted by General Ludd


So D&D doesn't have magic?

If "magic" is treated as some known quantity that can be measured, predicted, and studies, then, while you can still call it magic, it is hardly "magical", as in mysterious and otherworldly.

[Jon Miller]

ok, yours is a fair deffinition

as long as you recognise that most others define things differently

JM

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by GePap


If "magic" is treated as some known quantity that can be measured, predicted, and studies, then, while you can still call it magic, it is hardly "magical", as in mysterious and otherworldly.

It can be measured, predicted, and studied, but is still mysterious and otherwordly, because it is largely dependant on other planes of existance. (and what is more otherwordly than that?)

[Brent]

Attempts at magic fail plenty of times in stories. There may be side effects, or simply the wrong thing happens, or they didn't do it right and nothing happens. The Force does not always work either. You have to concentrate in order to have any effect, and in the novels, which are widely accepted, there are creatures called Ysalamiri which kill the Force in the area immediately surrounding them. And the Force didn't save all the good Jedi from the Purge, nor did it save the Emperor in the end.

If a magical vision doesn't show you facts, it is not magic. It is hallucination.

Who says a movie or whatever cannot be cross-genre? What movie or whatever is Science Fiction with no humor, drama, action, or romance?

2001: how realistic is it that Jupiter can become a star? How realistic is it that the space station in the movie could have been built without the real world concerns that prevented it in reality? How realistic are the Monoliths?

The debate about magic is moot because magic does not exist. There is no correct definition. People study supposed magic, and in fiction magic would not happen if someone didn't study and cause it. People get scientific about magic all the time. Different worlds are said to have varying strengths of magic.

There is no one definition for anything. There is no perfect definition for anything. No one definition includes all SF and excludes all else.

Magic is an illusion. In stories there is always assumed to be an explanation. It simply happens to be unknown to normal people.

[Starchild]

Originally posted by GePap


If "magic" is treated as some known quantity that can be measured, predicted, and studies, then, while you can still call it magic, it is hardly "magical", as in mysterious and otherworldly.

In some fantasy and cross-genre pieces ("Gargoyles" is the one that springs to mind), magic is treated as another form of energy but one that can be guided by human will.

"Energy is energy, whether generated by science or sorcery."

Technology or magic are just fiction catchwords for "doing something currently impossible."

I miss my collection of the Pern novels. I got into them at the perfect time cause the first ones start out as fantasy with dragons and lords but as the novels progressed, and I grew up, it revealed this science-fiction world of a fallen society on a distant planet with genetically modified creatures.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why on Earth would a magically presented vision have ANYTHING to do with facts??? The very point of magic is to get away from the mundane reality of facts- what do facts have to do with underlying universal forces (which is what magic is in the fantasy setting). Either the magical prediction was faulty, or not, but that fault has nothing to do with reality, but with the vision itself.

Can you PLEASE get your head out of this narrowly created box of what you think magic is. Yes, magic can be studied and measured and still be magic. Just because you've boxed magic in to make your argument stick doesn't mean your definition of magic has any merit.

Flawed magic can mean a partial failure, maybe because you have evaluated the facts wrong or studied it incorrectly.

We do not accept your narrow definition of magic. Sorry.

a story like 1984 (which is science fiction but NOT fantastical)

Actually it is a fantasy, because such a society does not exist.

Don't you remember the ending of the movie? In the coffee shop he tells Travolta he's going to quit his life of crime. At that moment the young couple stage their hold-up. He and Travolta surprise and disarm them, then let them go with the promise that they'll never do it again.

I don't think that deciding to retire is the same as redemption. He just doesn't want to do it anymore. I don't think that makes him in a 'good guy', in the classical sense of the world.

However I seem to recall that the money he stole form the boy was every penny he had in the world.

Which, IIRC, was one penny . Which Valjean put his foot over and then told the boy that he hadn't seen it.

He was a lawyer (barrister or solicitor, I forget) who spent his time drinking his family's money away. Back in those days the English thought that sort of behavior was bad.

Yes... but hardly roguish. Foolish perhaps, but not purposely being an ******* (though I guess it depends on your definition of the term).

[Brent]

So because someone had nothing, it's no big deal to take away what that person has?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Brent
So because someone had nothing, it's no big deal to take away what that person has?

It's not as bad to hide a penny under a shoe than it is to, say, break into a house and steal everything. It was far worse, IMO, to steal the candles from the bishop than to hide the penny, in effect stealing it.

[MosesPresley]

The difference between science and magic may be a moot point. Remember Arthur C. Clarke's famous line, "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic."

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Barinthus


Mmm I found that picture at this url http://www.cinemotoreonline.net/startrek.html

I can't read it - I believe it's in Italian. It looks like it was at an opening for that Nemesis movie although.

[GePap]

Originally posted by General Ludd


It can be measured, predicted, and studied, but is still mysterious and otherwordly, because it is largely dependant on other planes of existance. (and what is more otherwordly than that?)

What "other plane"? We have no idea why Gravity exists, really. We know it does-we can measure it, make predictions on it's workings, whatever. No one calls gravity magical.

[GePap]

Originally posted by MosesPresley
The difference between science and magic may be a moot point. Remember Arthur C. Clarke's famous line, "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic."

Yes, but that is only from the view point of the ignorant. Magic is the ability to make the impossible happen, impossible being defined as what one believes to be impossible-like a levitating object, or objects disappreaing and materializing at different locations, or creatures that simply could not really work biologically, like fire breathing dragons. For someone in 1700, a 747 is magic- how the hell could something as big as a large warship fly faster than anything moved in 1700? Its non-sense, its magic. We today know why a 747 works and don't consider it magic. KNOWING removes the magical, because it is no longer the impossible happening.

[Jon Miller]

DnD magic is then Science Fiction?

Woot

JM

[GePap]

Originally posted by Brent
Attempts at magic fail plenty of times in stories. There may be side effects, or simply the wrong thing happens, or they didn't do it right and nothing happens. The Force does not always work either. You have to concentrate in order to have any effect, and in the novels, which are widely accepted, there are creatures called Ysalamiri which kill the Force in the area immediately surrounding them. And the Force didn't save all the good Jedi from the Purge, nor did it save the Emperor in the end.

Any attempt to harness energy of any type can fail-what is the point?

If a magical vision doesn't show you facts, it is not magic. It is hallucination.

Ok, thanks for agreeing with me that a magically produced future vision would be perfect, and thus the Foundation series would not work with science replaced by magical revelation.

Who says a movie or whatever cannot be cross-genre? What movie or whatever is Science Fiction with no humor, drama, action, or romance?

What are you talking about? Humor, drama, action, romance are ALL basic parts of ANY STORY, whatever the genre. Any movie must have at least onje of these to exist. Saying a movie is fantasy, NOT sci fi in no way states that real sci fi can;t have drama- Solaris has drama.

2001: how realistic is it that Jupiter can become a star?

1. That is in 2010, NOT 2001.
2. IF the condition of the plot in 2010 were met, ie. the mass in Jupiter were increased so much that the whole thing imploded, then you would get fusion of the hydrogen and would get a star.

How realistic is it that the space station in the movie could have been built without the real world concerns that prevented it in reality?

What Concerns? The only reason we don't have a space station like the one in 2001 today are financial. Same reason we have yet to make moon bases-there is NOT technical issue for this not happening.

How realistic are the Monoliths?

I don't know- maybe in 5000 years we will, or not. This is where that Clarke statement about any tech being so advanced it is magic- for the reader of 2001 and 2010 and so forth the Monolith is magical, in so far as we are utterly ignorant of its workings.

There is no one definition for anything. There is no perfect definition for anything. No one definition includes all SF and excludes all else.

Oh, of course there are fuzzy borders for any definition, but the question is, what is the underlying point of sci fi- the common usage you accept is that simply having advanced technology in it makes it sci fi. I disagree, to me the point is HOW science, whether futuristic or not, is used in the story. Does it simply serve as a setting device-hey, look, knights IN SPACE! Or is it integral to the theme of the story?

Magic is an illusion. In stories there is always assumed to be an explanation. It simply happens to be unknown to normal people.

Magic is not always an illusion, in fact in most fantasy stories the effects of magic are quite physical.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
DnD magic is then Science Fiction?

Woot

JM

No. It is still fantasy, since at the basis there is the notion that this other "non-real" force exists. That in this universe people can do scientific things with it does not make a story science fiction. It does mean magic in the D&D universe is certainly less than magical.