The equal strengths of Star Wars and Star Trek

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

You have conceded that Star Wars is just repackaged fairytale already.

As is any science fiction, seeing as it is a subset of fantasy.

I disagree with this characterization, simply because science fiction has to include plausible science (or at least possible science).

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Look at Babylon 5 or Buck Rogers or even Star Trek. What makes it sci-fi is the space travel or use of the future or future technology in some way.

You call them science fiction?

/me points and laughs at Imran

[joncha]

Clearly they are period pieces.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Never read Tale of Two Cities.

Drunken dissolute young Englishman happens to look exactly like a helpless young aristocrat wanted by the Jacobites in revolutionary France. When all other means of extracting the young man from his doom fail, having become redeemed by the fair maidens love for the innocent nobel the Englishman takes his place at the guilotine uttering the famous line " 'Tis a far far better thing I do now than I have ever done before. 'Tis a far far better sleep I go to now than I have ever had before." Ssssssshhhhhhh-whack-plop.

Les Miserables had the rogue only bad ONCE in stealing for the priest. He was thrown in jail for stealing a loaf of bread and then stole from the priest and was redeemed and for the rest of the book (which was 90% of it) was a good guy.

He also stole from a kid on his way to the bishop's town. I also seem to recall that he may have killed someone in prison.

Clint Eastwood spagetti westerns?! Those all involved a rogue with a heart of gold since the beginning... he's cleaning out the town in FOD, and is stopping the bad guy in FFDM, and is "Good" in GB&U. Pulp Fiction? The main character is seen as good (or at least cool and sympathtic) since the beginning.

I was thinking of Sam Jackson. Doesn't he cold-bloodedly kill a bunch of college-aged kids just to punish some kids who stole some trinket from his boss? that's pretty bad IMHO.

Han was as an ass until the end when he thought about something except himself for once.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was thinking of Sam Jackson. Doesn't he cold-bloodedly kill a bunch of college-aged kids just to punish some kids who stole some trinket from his boss? that's pretty bad IMHO.

Is he ever redeemed? I don't remember one.

He also stole from a kid on his way to the bishop's town. I also seem to recall that he may have killed someone in prison.

His stealing from the kid was simply lying to him about where the money went (under Valjean's boot), which is bad, yes, but nothing horrible. I don't recall anything about him killing a prisoner in jail. Though he did try to escape many times, leading him to be imprisoned for 19 years.

And the original reason that he was put in was to steal a loaf of bread because he and his sister that he was taken care of were starving. Hardly a character we see as an ass.

Drunken dissolute young Englishman happens to look exactly like a helpless young aristocrat wanted by the Jacobites in revolutionary France. When all other means of extracting the young man from his doom fail, having become redeemed by the fair maidens love for the innocent nobel the Englishman takes his place at the guilotine uttering the famous line " 'Tis a far far better thing I do now than I have ever done before. 'Tis a far far better sleep I go to now than I have ever had before." Ssssssshhhhhhh-whack-plop.

How was he rogue then?

[Brent]

As I understand it, Harry Potter has to go to a school called Hogwarts to study magic. People who believe in magic in real life don't just automatically start casting spells (supposedly). I think they study how to supposedly do it. I'm not aware of any specific story where people are automatically able to do magic just because they decide some day that they want to, but then I don't like magic so I'm no expert. Name some examples of real science fiction if neither SW nor Trek qualify. Is there any on television? Are the Space Odyssey movies real science fiction? If there is none on TV or movies, most people have never experienced it. But there is a public perception of what SF is, and the two prime examples are SW and Trek. A definition only understood correctly by a few dozen experts isn't worth much. If 99 percent of humanity is completely wrong about all definitions, how do they communicate? The definitions of the many outweigh the definitions of the few (or the one).

[Jon Miller]

in the baen free library there are two novels about a comptuer programmer who goes to a world and discovers that the magic all follows these set rules, he than writes programs using the magic and has everythign behaving very orderly (except when a bug exists...)

Jon Miller

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Here is your preconcieved notions of magic. Why can't someone create a flawed magic? Magic which is not perfect. Magic which may not work perfectly. Simply because everyone has written about perfect magic doesn't end the discussion on magic. Stop boxing yourself in.

What would be "flawed magic" exactly? What would be imperfect about it? You can't saw "flawed Gravity" or "flawed electromagnetism", or "flawed Force(as in SW)". You may misuse, but it does not make the force itself flawed. Doing a spell badly is a very different thing from making a theory that is mistaken due to missing data- one is a mistake, the other is a limit imposed on the scientist.

No it wouldn't. You could try to manipulate the future using a magical revealed future, which is only based on the facts as the society knows them, and then later finding inconveinient facts come up which render the magical prediction flawed.

Why on Earth would a magically presented vision have ANYTHING to do with facts??? The very point of magic is to get away from the mundane reality of facts- what do facts have to do with underlying universal forces (which is what magic is in the fantasy setting). Either the magical prediction was faulty, or not, but that fault has nothing to do with reality, but with the vision itself. Again, facts on earth do not make the Revelation according to St. John false, either the revelation was correct or not itself.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
As is any science fiction, seeing as it is a subset of fantasy. Look at Babylon 5 or Buck Rogers or even Star Trek. What makes it sci-fi is the space travel or use of the future or future technology in some way.

False.

NOt all science fiction stories are recycled-that perhaps is one of the best parts of true science fiction- first, there are some basic universal human themes you are bound to find in ALL literature. Taking that into account, a story like 1984 (which is science fiction but NOT fantastical) does posit a brand new notion, a new story of a modern totalitarian distopia unlike most workd before it. Maybe only We and Brave New World were comparable. And science fiction does NOT need to have future tech, it could have today's tech-the point is creating a new situation thanks to science that forces people to rethink some basic ideas.

[Ted Striker]

Fans of 1984 will LOVE Half Life 2

I love that freakin' game, one of the BEST EVER

[Ted Striker]

"We Don't Go to Ravenholm"

OMG I GOTTA PLAY!!!

[GePap]

Originally posted by Brent
Name some examples of real science fiction if neither SW nor Trek qualify.

Star Trek, being an episodic TV show, has had example of Scince Fiction in its run, unlike the SW movies.

That being said, 2001 and Solaris are both good examples of Science Fiction on Film.

Is there any on television? Are the Space Odyssey movies real science fiction? If there is none on TV or movies, most people have never experienced it. But there is a public perception of what SF is, and the two prime examples are SW and Trek. A definition only understood correctly by a few dozen experts isn't worth much. If 99 percent of humanity is completely wrong about all definitions, how do they communicate? The definitions of the many outweigh the definitions of the few (or the one).

Defining Literary genres are hardly the providence of dictionary makers. What, for example, is Gulliver's Travels? Should it be in the fantasy section? Classics? Humor? Satire?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

If magic can be theorised and studied like electromagnetism, it ceases to be magic.

No it doesn't... actually that would be very interesting to have a story involving some study of magic (in order to find out how to create greater spells or some such).

Yes it does. If you can study "magic", then it is NOT "magic", as in a mystical unexplained thing. It becomes another universal force, like gravity or electromagnetism. You could certainly then work with it and study it, and I am sure that there are stories out there on this very idea. BUt it is no longer magical. .

[Drake Tungsten]

2001 and Solaris

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes it does. If you can study "magic", then it is NOT "magic", as in a mystical unexplained thing. It becomes another universal force, like gravity or electromagnetism. You could certainly then work with it and study it, and I am sure that there are stories out there on this very idea. BUt it is no longer magical. .

So D&D doesn't have magic?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I was thinking of Sam Jackson. Doesn't he cold-bloodedly kill a bunch of college-aged kids just to punish some kids who stole some trinket from his boss? that's pretty bad IMHO.

Is he ever redeemed? I don't remember one.

Don't you remember the ending of the movie? In the coffee shop he tells Travolta he's going to quit his life of crime. At that moment the young couple stage their hold-up. He and Travolta surprise and disarm them, then let them go with the promise that they'll never do it again.

He also stole from a kid on his way to the bishop's town. I also seem to recall that he may have killed someone in prison.

His stealing from the kid was simply lying to him about where the money went (under Valjean's boot), which is bad, yes, but nothing horrible. I don't recall anything about him killing a prisoner in jail. Though he did try to escape many times, leading him to be imprisoned for 19 years.

And the original reason that he was put in was to steal a loaf of bread because he and his sister that he was taken care of were starving. Hardly a character we see as an ass.

I may be getting the original story confused with a French movie version I saw a few years ago. However I seem to recall that the money he stole form the boy was every penny he had in the world.

Drunken dissolute young Englishman happens to look exactly like a helpless young aristocrat wanted by the Jacobites in revolutionary France. When all other means of extracting the young man from his doom fail, having become redeemed by the fair maidens love for the innocent nobel the Englishman takes his place at the guilotine uttering the famous line " 'Tis a far far better thing I do now than I have ever done before. 'Tis a far far better sleep I go to now than I have ever had before." Ssssssshhhhhhh-whack-plop.

How was he rogue then?

He was a lawyer (barrister or solicitor, I forget) who spent his time drinking his family's money away. Back in those days the English thought that sort of behavior was bad.