Biggest Mistakes the Axis made iyo.

[Ned]

Here's what Hitler had to say to FDR in 1939:

"Hitler's ...address of 28 April 1939 (four months before the outbreak of war in Europe) which were directed personally to President Roosevelt:

"I have taken no step that violated foreign rights, but I have restored the rights which had been violated twenty years ago (at Versailles}. Within the territory of the present Greater German Reich there is no part which did not belong to it since ancient times or was not subject to its sovereignty. Long before the American continent was discovered by the White Man, this Reich existed. President Roosevelt believes that the leaders of the great nations have it in their power to protect the nations from the imminent disaster of war. If this is correct, it is criminal rashness if the leaders of nations who wield great power do not curb their newspapers which agitate continuously for war. It would be an honorable achievement if President Roosevelt were to redeem the lofty promises of President Wilson. That would certainly be a practical contribution to the moral consolidation of the world ...

President Roosevelt, Hitler continued, I understand that the vastness of your realm and the immeasurable wealth of your resources make you feel yourself responsible for the destiny of the entire world. My scope, however, is much more modest. I have assumed power in a country with 140 inhabitants per square kilometer, not 15. Billions of German savings in gold and foreign exchange were taken from us. We lost all our colonies. In 1933 we had seven million unemployed, as well as several million part-time employed, and we faced ruin. In the past six and half years I have devoted all of my effort to mobilizing the energy of my people, who have been outlawed and abandoned by the rest of the world. Furthermore I have tried to remove, page by page, that (Versailles) treaty which, with its 448 articles, represents the crudest violation ever imposed on nations and individuals."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

The Nazis are rightly condemned for their racism. They are rightly condemned for their one-party, totalitarian rule. But, neither is the reason for the outbreak of WWII.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned


Yes they drew a line in the sand, on August 26th, five days before the attack, and during the middle of negotiations. This was NOT you typical defensive alliance. It was direct interference by Britain and France in ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland.

I ask you as I asked Molly earlier, what business was it of Britain to torpedo ongoing negotiations between Germany and Poland? What right did they have to interfere?

Your timeline of events is a little off Ned. Please see: http://www.worlwar-2.net/prelude-to-...-war-index.htm

If you scan the timeline you'll see that Hitler began demanding concessions from Poland well before August 1939. The Polish repeatedly refused to negotiate the surrender of territory throughout 1939. The British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact was signed in June, 1939, and France was included in the pact on August 25, 1939, but on August 27, 1939 Chamberlain encouraged the Polish government to enter negotiations with Germany. The Polish refused to do so, and Hitler attacked.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Your timeline of events is a little off Ned. Please see: "http://www.worlwar-2.net/prelude-to-war/prelude-to-war-index.htm" .

If you scan the timeline you'll see that Hitler began demanding concessions from Poland well before August 1939. The Polish repeatedly refused to negotiate the surrender of territory throughout 1939. The British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact was signed in June, 1939, and France was included in the pact on August 25, 1939, but on August 27, 1939 Chamberlain encouraged the Polish government to enter negotiations with Germany. The Polish refused to do so, and Hitler attacked.

I'll check that out, as it was my understanding that the Poles refused to negotiate at the behest of Britain.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned
Here's what Hitler had to say to FDR in 1939:

"Hitler's ...address of 28 April 1939 (four months before the outbreak of war in Europe) which were directed personally to President Roosevelt:

"I have taken no step that violated foreign rights, but I have restored the rights which had been violated twenty years ago (at Versailles}. Within the territory of the present Greater German Reich there is no part which did not belong to it since ancient times or was not subject to its sovereignty. Long before the American continent was discovered by the White Man, this Reich existed. President Roosevelt believes that the leaders of the great nations have it in their power to protect the nations from the imminent disaster of war. If this is correct, it is criminal rashness if the leaders of nations who wield great power do not curb their newspapers which agitate continuously for war. It would be an honorable achievement if President Roosevelt were to redeem the lofty promises of President Wilson. That would certainly be a practical contribution to the moral consolidation of the world ...

And this means exactly what? Hitler wanted to recover the Holy Roman Empire? If that were the case Poland was the wrong direction to move, because neither Poland nor (non-Brandenburg) Prussia ever belonged to the HRE. Even if Bohemia had pnce been included, Slovakia didn't belong to the HRE either. If Hitler wanted to restore Germany to the HRE borders then he should have turned ans seized northern Italy. That's not what he did. Why? Becauuse first and foremost Hitler was a psychopathic liar.

President Roosevelt, Hitler continued, I understand that the vastness of your realm and the immeasurable wealth of your resources make you feel yourself responsible for the destiny of the entire world. My scope, however, is much more modest. I have assumed power in a country with 140 inhabitants per square kilometer, not 15. Billions of German savings in gold and foreign exchange were taken from us. We lost all our colonies. In 1933 we had seven million unemployed, as well as several million part-time employed, and we faced ruin. In the past six and half years I have devoted all of my effort to mobilizing the energy of my people, who have been outlawed and abandoned by the rest of the world. Furthermore I have tried to remove, page by page, that (Versailles) treaty which, with its 448 articles, represents the crudest violation ever imposed on nations and individuals."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p-41_Braun.html

Really? The treaty of Versailles was nothing compared to the treaties with which the Prussians, Austrians and Russians devoured Poland at the end of the 18th century. The greatest land adjustment incurred by the Germans was the correction of that ancient injustice. The Germans, in collaboration with Austria and Russia deprived the Polish people of their nation. Do you doubt that it was just to give them back their country?

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was of course completely dissolved, but then the dual monarchy wasn't really a country. It was a dyanasty pretending to be a country. The Hungarians, Romanians, Czecho-slovaks, and southern slavs were equally entitled to their own nations as were the Germans. Do you believe otherwise? If not then you must admit that nothing was really taken from the Germans that was theirs.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

Threads about WW2 are automatically excluded from this rule.

[Ned]

Dr. Strangelove, you are right on the last minute effort by the Brits to begin negotiations. You are wrong about the date of the Brit. mutual defense pact with Poland. It was Aug. 26. But, prior to that, Britain had given a "blank check" to Poland at the end of March. That is when the Poles stopped negotiating.

In late August, Hitler presented his terms to Poland. Through intercepted traffic between Poland and Britain, he found that Poland still had no intention to negotiate. Thus, Hitler order the war to begin. He was still certain, though, that France and Britain would not intervene.

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/roadiv.html

Here are the terms Gemany offered:

German demands:
1. Danzig will become German. Gdingen remain Polish. Polish interests will be protected in Danzig.

2. Corridor: Plebiscite for entire area enclosed in the line Netze-Thorn-Marienburg, on the basis of the population figures for 1910 (Kinzel joked that the Poles could just as well demand it on the basis for the figures of 1410).

3. Occupation of the Corridor by an international contingent of troops until the plebiscite.

4. Reparations for all damage done to German speakers within Poland.

[Tassadar500]

The Allies would have been fools to think that Hitler would have just left it at those demands. It's like a kid pulls out a knife, and threatens to stab you, but you punch him first, and get away. Who started the fight?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned
Dr. Strangelove, you are right on the last minute effort by the Brits to begin negotiations. You are wrong about the date of the Brit. mutual defense pact with Poland. It was Aug. 26. But, prior to that, Britain had given a "blank check" to Poland at the end of March. That is when the Poles stopped negotiating.

Yet another site also lists the date of the first British-Polish Mutual Assistance Pact as being April 6, 1939. (I mis-read the date on the first site as June 4 because it was listed as 6 - 4 - 1939 according to European notation.) http://www.polishholocaust.org/1939.html

In late August, Hitler presented his terms to Poland. Through intercepted traffic between Poland and Britain, he found that Poland still had no intention to negotiate. Thus, Hitler order the war to begin. He was still certain, though, that France and Britain would not intervene.

http://www2.bc.edu/~heineman/roadiv.html

Here are the terms Gemany offered:

German demands:
1. Danzig will become German. Gdingen remain Polish. Polish interests will be protected in Danzig.

2. Corridor: Plebiscite for entire area enclosed in the line Netze-Thorn-Marienburg, on the basis of the population figures for 1910 (Kinzel joked that the Poles could just as well demand it on the basis for the figures of 1410).

3. Occupation of the Corridor by an international contingent of troops until the plebiscite.

4. Reparations for all damage done to German speakers within Poland.

In Hitlers hands item #4 would certainly have meant the eventual annexation of Poland. I can guarentee you he would have made excessive claims and then would have had his boys march in when the Polish didn't pay what he asked.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
actually the first side to bring up the nazis automatically loses the debate, so this thread should be a closed case.

The topis of this debate is probably painful to you Ecthelion, and I'm sorry, but it has to be done. We can't allow this sort of pro-fascist historical revisionism remain unanswered.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ned
Similarly, when Japan took the Dutch East Indies, it did no because the Dutch refused to sell them oil.

I am not sure if you are condemning their action or not.

It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Did Hitler stop at taking just former German land when he annexed not only the Sudetenland, but also the rest of Czechoslovakia? No he did not! Germany never owned Bohemia or Slovakia. For that matter Germany never owned the Sudetenland. Germany's claim on the Sudetenland stemmed not from historical claims of ownership, but from demographics.

This doesn't have much to do with your point, but nothing had ever historically belonged to Germany, it was at the time an artificial country built upon a new identity in 1871 - the Germanic one. Their territorial claims had to be based on demography.

[Fake Boris]

I find it hilarious that Ned defends the war in Iraq while at the same time blaming the British for their resistance in WW2.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I am not sure if you are condemning their action or not.

It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.

See? That's my point. So young and so angry. D**n that rap music!

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


It's like saying that you killed Ted Striker and took over his house because he refuses to sell you porn. Or something.