Biggest Mistakes the Axis made iyo.

[Alexander's Horse]

How about starting WWII, that was a bit of a howler of a bad decision for the Axis powers wasn't it?

Look at Germany and Japan and Italy today, they all do rather well without having to send in the troops.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Why do we even call them the Axis powers, if it weren't for any treaty?

Oh, right, adhering to treaties, otherwise the Allies won't call them the Axis powers...


I think you lost the plot somewhere, or you're having difficulties understanding my point.


The Japanese militarists could have broken the treaty with the Soviet Union when it was attacked by Nazi Germany- after all it's not like the war regime in Japan felt noticeably bound to slavishly follow to the letter other treaties.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Kalius


Well, he Me109 was chosen as the main fighter of the German army back in the mid 1930s over the He100. Even then, it took around 5 years for a plane to go from prototype to the real, fully fledged fighting plane. The Me262 is an excellent example of this. They had, after roughly 3 years of development, about a half-strength fleet of Me262s. The Me109 was chosen as the be-all fighter of Luftwaffe, and as the Luftwaffe was still growing, it made sense to choose one fighter, make a huge number of them, and you'd be set.

Originally, the Me109 was chosen over the He100 mainly because it was more stable, easier to fix, and was very quick on landing. Too quick, in fact. By the time the He100 caught up, the Me109 was already in full fledged production and there simply weren't enough engines to go around at the time. It was faster, more stable and had a larger range than the Me109, but, it was too late.

At the time of the Battle of Britain the Germans did have the twin engined Me 110 which was originally designed as a long range fighter. Unfortunately it did not perform well against the Spitfire and the Hurricane and was quickly removed from that role.

[Alexander's Horse]

didn't perform well? it was a piece of junk

[Boris Godunov]

It's well-known from Hitler's own writings and those of his inner circle that he didn't want the war with Britain and was dismayed that the British were unwilling to negotiate peace. Hitler's chief goal had always been eastward expansion and an attack on the USSR. Keep in mind that he loathed Bolshevism as much as he loathed Jews--in fact, he considered them part and parcel with one another.

And as for the supply line issue in Barbarossa, we also have to acknowledge the problem generated by the SS. The Wehrmacht was dismayed by the SS following them up and instituting terrors in the occupied regions. The resistances spawned by SS atrocities were a major factor in the hampering of German supply lines.

[Dr Strangelove]

Some units however gleefully competed with the SS to see who could kill more Jews and Soviet civilians. I believe this was particularily true in Army Group South.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Oh, right, adhering to treaties, otherwise the Allies won't call them the Axis powers...


I think you lost the plot somewhere, or you're having difficulties understanding my point.


The Japanese militarists could have broken the treaty with the Soviet Union when it was attacked by Nazi Germany- after all it's not like the war regime in Japan felt noticeably bound to slavishly follow to the letter other treaties.

From my part, I remember reading in Keegan that Hitler's decision to declare war to America was in large part based on the treaty with Japan.

He may have underestimated America, but I doubt he would have declared war without any reason - he would, to the least, have waited for them to join on their own.

BTW, haven't you ever heard of the term "the Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis"? IIRC it was explicitly used in the tripartite treaty they signed in 1936.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kalius


Well, he Me109 was chosen as the main fighter of the German army back in the mid 1930s over the He100. Even then, it took around 5 years for a plane to go from prototype to the real, fully fledged fighting plane. The Me262 is an excellent example of this. They had, after roughly 3 years of development, about a half-strength fleet of Me262s. The Me109 was chosen as the be-all fighter of Luftwaffe, and as the Luftwaffe was still growing, it made sense to choose one fighter, make a huge number of them, and you'd be set.

Originally, the Me109 was chosen over the He100 mainly because it was more stable, easier to fix, and was very quick on landing. Too quick, in fact. By the time the He100 caught up, the Me109 was already in full fledged production and there simply weren't enough engines to go around at the time. It was faster, more stable and had a larger range than the Me109, but, it was too late.

Time had run out, and the Luftwaffe only had the capacity to make one choice. They merely said the Me109 was "good enough".

If it take three years (or more) to develop a fighter, I hardly think the Germans could have develop a long range bomber in one.

This all suggests that the Germans had no plans for going to war with Britain and that Britain force war on them against their will. This supports my underlying thesis that the greatest German mistake was underestimating the Brits.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
How about starting WWII, that was a bit of a howler of a bad decision for the Axis powers wasn't it?

Look at Germany and Japan and Italy today, they all do rather well without having to send in the troops.

In truth, it was the Brits who started WWII.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
It's well-known from Hitler's own writings and those of his inner circle that he didn't want the war with Britain and was dismayed that the British were unwilling to negotiate peace. Hitler's chief goal had always been eastward expansion and an attack on the USSR. Keep in mind that he loathed Bolshevism as much as he loathed Jews--in fact, he considered them part and parcel with one another.

And as for the supply line issue in Barbarossa, we also have to acknowledge the problem generated by the SS. The Wehrmacht was dismayed by the SS following them up and instituting terrors in the occupied regions. The resistances spawned by SS atrocities were a major factor in the hampering of German supply lines.

Agreed. The war with Britain was unintended. The SS destroyed any remote possibility of a win in Russia.

[Frozzy]

If it take three years (or more) to develop a fighter, I hardly think the Germans could have develop a long range bomber in one.

This all suggests that the Germans had no plans for going to war with Britain and that Britain force war on them against their will. This supports my underlying thesis that the greatest German mistake was underestimating the Brits.

You have the remember the Luftwaffe was completely nuked by Versailles. By the time they started rebuilding it, they had NO manufacturing capacity or wide-spread experience in building the things, and those that did have it were overly rusty. They had no engines by the time they decided "Yep, let's make a Luftwaffe", nor did they have any major manufacturing plants designed for building planes.

It took them a few years to sort this out, and another few to sort out a fighter to choose. By this time it was around 1937 and they thought the Me109 was simply good enough. Now they have some experience, plans are drawn up, and they can develop planes faster.

The Brits on the other hand didn't stop their RAF production, and the Hurricanes and Spitfires were the result of many years offine tuning over the inter-war period. For the record, the Avro Lancaster was developed in less than a year, the prototype flying in 1941, and the fully fledged squadron entering service in early 1942.The Handley-Page Halifax took just over a year. In stark contrast, the Ju-88 took nearly 3 years to enter service, The He-111 took 2 years, and the He-177, the only heavy bomber used by Germany in WWII, took 3-4 years to enter service.

[Frozzy]

At the time of the Battle of Britain the Germans did have the twin engined Me 110 which was originally designed as a long range fighter. Unfortunately it did not perform well against the Spitfire and the Hurricane and was quickly removed from that role.

That one took 3 years to develop as well because Germany simply had no engines. And what a piece of crap it was as well.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris




BTW, haven't you ever heard of the term "the Berlin-Rome-Tokyo Axis"? IIRC it was explicitly used in the tripartite treaty they signed in 1936.

Oh for goodness' sake, yes of course I've heard of it.


What I'm saying is, and I'll state this as simply as possible, is that the military regime in Japan 'could' have broken any number of treaties with the Soviet Union.

What do you think was going to happen ?

That they wouldn't have done that because they were afraid future historians would no longer be able to refer to them as the Axis ?

[Dr Strangelove]

As I implied above, by late 1941 Hitler was spoiling for a fight with the US. From late 1939 until the end of 1941 the maritime war zone, the region in which the germans declared that they would sink anything they wanted to had been confined to the eastern Atlantic and the Mediterranean. The Kriegsmarine was getting ready to shift it's submarine campaign from the eastern Atlantic to the western Atlantic and Carribean. Surely someone must have realised that such a move would increase the sinking of American ships and that the US would never have been able to accept the extension of the maritme war zone to include the entire Atlantic and Carribean outside of its 3 mile territorial limit. I doubt that FDR would have had any trouble getting Congress to declare war after the first couple of American tankers and freighters had been sunk off the coast of Florida.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned


In truth, it was the Brits who started WWII.

Of course, when they had an Anschluss with the Republic of Ireland, demanded territory from Iceland and invaded Sweden.


Time for your Geritol.