Apostates of Islam

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, Jesus brought the idea of a kind and loving God, that forgives basically everything as long as you repent. It's quite a difference with the God depicted in the OT (I deleted the adjectives as I wrote this post, because I thought you'd feel insulted).

The idea that love is a central virtue to honor God, in particular, is something you barely find in the OT. I know there are some love poems, which is to be expected from a text that gathers centuries/millenia of tradition. But love is no more central to it than mythological history, or than the Law.

No, thats a complete distortion. The idea of G-ds love for his people is central to the Hebrew scriptures, as is the notion of repentance.

[Az]

-in orthodoxy gays are shunned from the community all together, and are considered dead for all matters and purposes. Same with people that leave the fold of religion (Hozrim be'She'ela). I am sure it's similar to the christian fundies.

Islam is more lenient and superior, though, by mandating jail sentences, flogging, or even the death penalty.

Of course, this is not really Islam, but an evil false interpretation by fundies. In fact, the Qu'ran strictly mandates that gay pride parades be held 3 times a year, gay marriages be accepted, and Sher is the only performer allowed. ( yes, she was alive, even back then )

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

. But love is no more central to it than mythological history, or than the Law.

Law is a translation of the Greek Nomos, which is how Saul/Paul translates Torah. Its an incorrect translation. Law in the juridical sense would be something more like mishpat. Torah means the way, its more like Confucian "li" the right way, the proper path. Torah, in Judaism, was given out of love - the traditional Jew relates to Torah as the expression of G-ds love.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
No, thats a complete distortion. The idea of G-ds love for his people is central to the Hebrew scriptures, as is the notion of repentance.

That's funny, he didn't seem to love Onan that much
And I won't mention how much God loves anybody that's non-Hebrew

[Az]

No, thats a complete distortion. The idea of G-ds love for his people is central to the Hebrew scriptures, as is the notion of repentance.

Oh, please. You always get god upset with the Israelites like he's surprised, or something, especially, while 'testing' them all the time, and then they fail many of the tests. Well, surprise!

Gotta give the "hebrew" god this: He's much more realistic than the "god loves you, and so does his son (????!)" christian god.


Btw, what's up with "G-d"?

You know, it's amazing how some superstitions, like that if you know the name of someone you've got power over him, still go strong after 8000 years of fire, the plow, the Assault rifle, and the man on the moon. It's a good old remain of pagan beliefs of the ancients, right up there with the big black box in Mecca, and the christmas tree. Same with the little voodoo box on all jewish rooms.

El = God in hebrew = the name of an ancient Canaanite God who's main worship center was the ancient town of Jerusalem. This is well documented in the Torah, ironically, in Beresheet, where Abraham meets the priest (?) of El, and befriends him = more proof that the Hebrews are canaanites, btw.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

That's funny, he didn't seem to love Onan that much
And I won't mention how much God loves anybody that's non-Hebrew

Its tough love, dude.

Love for the non-hebrews comes through more in a few of the later prophets. But yeah, this is a love story between G-d and Israel, for the most part, Its OUR book, man. No wonder when non-Jews try to make it the center of their religion trouble ensues.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Azazel
El = God in hebrew = the name of an ancient Canaanite God who's main worship center was the ancient town of Jerusalem. This is well documented in the Torah, ironically, in Beresheet, where Abraham meets the priest (?) of El, and befriends him = more proof that the Hebrews are canaanites, btw.

Very interesting!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
Same with the little voodoo box on all jewish rooms.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel

No, thats a complete distortion. The idea of G-ds love for his people is central to the Hebrew scriptures, as is the notion of repentance.

Oh, please. You always get god upset with the Israelites like he's surprised, or something, especially, while 'testing' them all the time, and then they fail many of the tests. Well, surprise!

Gotta give the "hebrew" god this: He's much more realistic than the "god loves you, and so does his son (????!)" christian god.


Btw, what's up with "G-d"?

You know, it's amazing how some superstitions, like that if you know the name of someone you've got power over him, still go strong after 8000 years of fire, the plow, the Assault rifle, and the man on the moon. It's a good old remain of pagan beliefs of the ancients, right up there with the big black box in Mecca, and the christmas tree. Same with the little voodoo box on all jewish rooms.

El = God in hebrew = the name of an ancient Canaanite God who's main worship center was the ancient town of Jerusalem. This is well documented in the Torah, ironically, in Beresheet, where Abraham meets the priest (?) of El, and befriends him = more proof that the Hebrews are canaanites, btw.

Look, I know no lightings gonna strike me for spelling out G-ds name - just like it wouldnt if i ate a crab cake. I try to keep traditions if theres no good reason to change them (IE practical reason, like helping gay people, not to "express" something or other)

As for Jews (essentially) being in origin Canaanites, I fully agree. I think thats the best explanation for the contradictions in the exodus story, as well as various linguistic and archaelogical data.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Mezuzah, a box containing torah verses, in literal fullfilment of Devarim (Deuteronomy to SOME) "you shall bind them as a sign upon they hands ... and upon the doorposts of thy house and upon thy gates"

unfortunately there is some mention in earlyt exts of the Mezuzah as protecting the house, and many orthodox jews treat the Mezuzah superstisiously as a magical amulet. While following the custom, I prefer to treat its meaning more spiritually.

[Spiffor]

Ah yes, I think I remember this word. The rabbi who wed my cousin last year used it extensively. I didn't know what he was talking about though, I thought it was some item to be placed on the front door. Maybe I'm mixing the sacred items

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel
El = God in hebrew = the name of an ancient Canaanite God who's main worship center was the ancient town of Jerusalem. This is well documented in the Torah, ironically, in Beresheet, where Abraham meets the priest (?) of El, and befriends him = more proof that the Hebrews are canaanites, btw.

Actually, El was a Sumerian god. Abrahm came from Sumeria, specifically Ur, if Scripture is to be believed. As for Jews originally being from Canaan, well, who else was Abrahm's family gonna marry?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Bzzzt, wrong. You'll note that Imran and Oerdin were already engaged in the argument. I was merely contributing to that portion of it. And my argument was only that there are scholars who debate the established orthodoxy in this matter.

Bzzzt, not wrong. On page 4 Oerdin remarked that he thought that all 3 religions are made up, but continued to stick to the subject matter. Imran made a passing allusion to the fact that some people think that Jesus was fictional, then you come on with a 4 page diatribe on why you think that Christ didn't exist.

Besides, threadjacks happen all the time. Most people can deal with it without whining.

Actually I thought that I was chuckling.

I don't need "reminding" of that, as I've never said or felt otherwise, thank you. As I've said--several times--I was not participating in any argument over the merits of Christianity vs. Islam. So your remark was both irrelevant and offensive.

My remarks were closer to being on topic then yours, so they weren't irrelevant. Since the topic was (broadly) the morality of contemporary Islamic practises then my referrence to the way Islamic law treats one particular minority was within bounds of the discussion and therefore not offensive. If you must take offense take it against those who would execute you for merely being yourself.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Ah yes, I think I remember this word. The rabbi who wed my cousin last year used it extensively. I didn't know what he was talking about though, I thought it was some item to be placed on the front door. Maybe I'm mixing the sacred items

the same. In fact youre supposed to put it on EVERY doorpost, except the bathroom. Most non-O jews only put it on the front door, however.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, El was a Sumerian god. Abrahm came from Sumeria, specifically Ur, if Scripture is to be believed.

I dont think Az treats scripture as a historical source on this matter. And, in the face of overwhelming evidence on this particular point, I dont either. Surprised you do.