Apostates of Islam

[Imran Siddiqui]

Read Bible. Jesus says that. He says for example You don't have to fast in sabat.

But he did not disavow all of the Old Testament, did he? He only said that there are certain things you don't have to do anymore.

Weak argument.
The behaviour of VIIIth century Christians is of no relevance to modern Christianity, while Al-Qur'an and Muhammad are the basis of Muslim beliefs.

No, it's a very good argument. You have to look at the life of the religion and Islam has 600 years to be where Christianity is.

Muslim world 650-1300 lets say was a fourishing one and definitely can not be called barbaric - not more than any other civ of the era.

That was my ultimate point, ie, Islam is not inherantly barbaric, because look at the world they created during that period.

[Jon Miller]

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, not do away with it

therefore things that he fulfilled are no longer neccesary (physical cicumcission, sacrifcing a lamb,....) while others are still proper (keeping the Sabbath holy)

Jon Miller

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Read Bible. Jesus says that. He says for example You don't have to fast in sabat.

But he did not disavow all of the Old Testament, did he? He only said that there are certain things you don't have to do anymore.

No, actually He tolf something that made a great impression on me. He said that pharisees are following human tradition, but not the will of God.
Also, we're extending His teachings where we can, just like Muslim do in fiqh.

Weak argument.
The behaviour of VIIIth century Christians is of no relevance to modern Christianity, while Al-Qur'an and Muhammad are the basis of Muslim beliefs.

No, it's a very good argument. You have to look at the life of the religion and Islam has 600 years to be where Christianity is.

That was a weak argument, this one is laughable.
From Muslim point of view, Abraham and Jesus were Muslim... Islam is the eternal religion of God, while Christianity is its later deformation... In spiritual sense, Islam is according to itself older than Christianity.
From historical perspective, on the other hand, Christianity is younger than judaism or samaritanism or buddhism....

Muslim world 650-1300 lets say was a fourishing one and definitely can not be called barbaric - not more than any other civ of the era.

That was my ultimate point, ie, Islam is not inherantly barbaric, because look at the world they created during that period.

Well, much of this flourishing was against Muslim teachings...
But anyway, there were limits of Muslim culture that will never cease to exist. Like the case of apostates.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That was a weak argument, this one is laughable.
From Muslim point of view, Abraham and Jesus were Muslim... Islam is the eternal religion of God, while Christianity is its later deformation... In spiritual sense, Islam is according to itself older than Christianity.
From historical perspective, on the other hand, Christianity is younger than judaism or samaritanism or buddhism....

How exactly have you proven it was laughable again? Around 1400s, Christianity went through a spiritual revival. It is what led to the Reformation. Perhaps that is similarly what will happen in the Islam world. Christianity is historically older, so has gone through rises and falls to reach 'modernity'. Islam is younger and thus has a way to go to follow the path set forth by Christianity. Evaluate them by the amount of time they've been around.

"Spiritually" all religions say they've been around since the beginning. How else are you to be blessed by God?

Well, much of this flourishing was against Muslim teachings...

Um... in what ways? If that was the case, why didn't Imams rise up and say this is wrong? I don't see where scientific learning was against Muslim teachings, since they were a part of it since the beginning.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


How exactly have you proven it was laughable again? Around 1400s, Christianity went through a spiritual revival. It is what led to the Reformation. Perhaps that is similarly what will happen in the Islam world. Christianity is historically older, so has gone through rises and falls to reach 'modernity'. Islam is younger and thus has a way to go to follow the path set forth by Christianity. Evaluate them by the amount of time they've been around.

By this logic, Judaicism should be alot more advanced than Christianity is. Do you think it is?

Personally, I don't think the age of a religion is terribly relevant. There's nothing saying that the rate of change should be constant.

[Imran Siddiqui]

By this logic, Judaicism should be alot more advanced than Christianity is. Do you think it is?

Actually, yes. Take a look at Reform Judaism and the Judaism most Jews practice (it isn't Orthodox). The years of the religion have made it more tolerant overall (though in specific cases there are hardliners).

There's nothing saying that the rate of change should be constant.

But it does end up following similar pathways.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS


I think it was the Israel-Palestine conflict that soured him.

That's only recently been about Islam. For most of the time it was a struggle between rival nationalisms.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I'd agree Islam started out stupid, Christianity only became stupid after ~300 years

Nah, Christianity started out stupid too. The religion is largely based on Paul, and ignores one of the most important apostles, Mary Magdelene.

[Az]

I see that Imran is back to espousing his old "all religions follow the same paths and have the same half-lives" crap.

[Heresson]

How exactly have you proven it was laughable again? Around 1400s, Christianity went through a spiritual revival. It is what led to the Reformation. Perhaps that is similarly what will happen in the Islam world. Christianity is historically older, so has gone through rises and falls to reach 'modernity'. Islam is younger and thus has a way to go to follow the path set forth by Christianity. Evaluate them by the amount of time they've been around.

You've ignored part of my post. According to You, judaism is more modern than Christianity, and Ccatholicism than protestantism, because of their age...
Also, reformation is not anything really good.

Um... in what ways? If that was the case, why didn't Imams rise up and say this is wrong? I don't see where scientific learning was against Muslim teachings, since they were a part of it since the beginning.

Because caliphs weren't really pius either. And I wasn't talking about science, but culture - poetry, art.

Actually, yes. Take a look at Reform Judaism and the Judaism most Jews practice (it isn't Orthodox). The years of the religion have made it more tolerant overall (though in specific cases there are hardliners).

Look at Israel. Orthodox Jews forbiding blocking roads in sabat and throwing rocks at cars, law forbiding import or production of pork even for non-Jewish people...

Nah, Christianity started out stupid too. The religion is largely based on Paul, and ignores one of the most important apostles, Mary Magdelene.

Evangely of Mary Magdalene is gnostic crap.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Does the Bible itself say that part of it can be ignored? It's a cop-out to say that Protestant groups say parts of the Old Testament can be ignored. The book itself doesn't say that.

Yes, Saint Peter especially was famous for telling people to ignore much of the old testament. Take for example the Jewish dietary restrictions which the old testament tells people to keep, however, both Jesus and St. Peter tell people they do not need to keep dietary restrictions because it is what you say and do not what you eat which makes a man holy.

Like Spiffor said, except for a few fringe fundie groups the Bible is seen as a work of man inspired by god thus certain parts of it can be ignored as the cul;tural bits of another era not god's message. Islam is supposedly God's direct words so it is much more difficult to remove the 8th century barbarism from it compared to the other monotheistic religions.

Hmmm, Christianity in the 700s allowed non-believers to flourish within their walls?

There were tons of people who claimed to speak for this religion or that who didn't follow the basic teachings of the religion. Jesus, unlike Mohammed, always preached nonviolence. The most violent I can remember Jesus being was when he drove the money changers out o the temple but even then he didn't steal from them or kill anyone he just told them if they were going to sin then they should sin some where other then the temple of god. Mohammed is on the record commiting murder, rape, political assassination, and the genicide of all the Jews in western Arabia because they dared to want to keep their own religion.

Frankly, your arguments are more on the basis of emotion than any logical basis. This whole deluded belief that our morality should apply to the past, for one.

See here is where you are wrong. Mohammed spells everything out for a muslim. He explains in great detail everything a muslim must do and the punishment for every crime. That's forcing a barbaric 8th century legal code onto modern life. Islam is the one attempting to force ancient & murderous ways upon the modern world. This isn't an emotional appeal; this is simply the truth if one follows the Koran.

If the religious was so barbaric, why was it the center of cultural and scientific advances in the late Middle Ages? Are you going to (predictably) argue that that was not due to Islam? If it was so inherantly barbaric, why was it not considered so during that time period? Maybe because it doesn't fit into your little fallacy that the culture that invented algebra could be considered barbaric?

The golden age of the Arabian Empire had an aweful lot to do with the break down of most other Empires and the lost of law and order in the rest of the world. India and Europe both weren't doing very well and as a result of the choas religious fundimentalism increased. European fundimentalists claimed that Europe had decayed because people weren't following god's will (sound familiar compared to modern Islam?) so they demanded unchristian things be burned including ancient greek and roman books. There are notable places in Europe where this didn't happen and where those books were saved (Read "How the Irish Saved Civilization") while the Arabian Empire was secure in their economic and political position and so didn't feel a need to burn "unIslamic" Greek & Roman books. The Arabs then translated many of these books and they formed the basis for a scientific community which did provide many useful inventions inclusing algebra.

As soon as the golden age was over though and the Empire was in decline the Muslims to went through centuries of claiming their Earthly decline was because they tolerated to many "nonIslamic" things to exist and they slide into fundimentalism.

I repeat that all three religions are deeply screwed but it is Islam's claim of being the infallable word of god and Mohammed's sanctioning of death, murder, and destruction in certain conditions (which can be interprited to mean just about anything as OBL has shown) which make it more harmful then the other two monotheistic religions.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Heresson
Bad joke. There was no sex in it. Mary remained virgin.

Not for her whole life, however. That's why I find the idolization of the Virgin Mary as bizarre. She didn't die a virgin, so she wouldn't be permanently ensconced that way.

[Sava]

let me break it down for everyone...

Bible = written by man, a book of lies

Koran = written by man, a book of lies

Torah = written by man, a book of lies

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
The late middle ages in Europe saw alot of cultural and scientific/technological advances. I'm hard pressed to think of any from the Islamic world.

The golden age of Islam was the 9th through the 11th centuries. The Caliphate started to disintegrate after that. One reason why the Crusaders were able to defend the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem for 200 years was the weakness of the Islamic state. The Caliphate was a dying animal by the middle ages. Other Muslim Kingdoms would arise especially the Tamarinds in Persia and the Moguls in India/Afghanistan but the golden age of the Islamic Empire was gone.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Heresson

astrolab or whatever.

Astrolabs were ancient Babalonian inventions. Algrebra and the spreading of Chinese ideas (gun powder and primative optics) to the west were the big things Islam contribution. It was the west who figured out beter things to do with those inventions.