Schiavo Thread Part Deux

[Bill3000]

We should probably slay this thread to the deddest of horses, or something. Or at least say that there's no possible way that the pro-lifers can win this one and stop debating.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by TCO
Quinlan died in the 80s. When was the discussion alleged to take place? And I think this whole tea-leaf reading thing (either pro or con) is kinda silly. I would trust a living will much more.

The case to have her disconnected was argued in 1976, and she was disconnected then. She lived another nine years. There wouldn't have been a lot of point about disagreeing with the fight to take her off life-support once she was already off life support.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, according to The Chicago Tribune it would be pretty normal, as they found that fully 1/3rd of all those sentenced to die in the State of Texas weren't adequately represented by counsel.

So, I take it Che, that you would agree that any proceeding where one was condemned to death without any counsel whatsoever is an unconstitutional proceeding?

[Capt Dizle]

Ned,

I almost always share your POV and will always respect your position but I think you are coloring outside the lines on this one. I think you are just plainly on the side of the line with George, Jeb, and the religious right on this issue. I think you feel so strongly on this issue you would cast aside all logic and seek any winning argument. Heck, I respect that as well, because I think you are sincere in your beliefs.

If I have read you wrong on this, or if I have offended you, I apologize.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Bill3000
We should probably slay this thread to the deddest of horses, or something. Or at least say that there's no possible way that the pro-lifers can win this one and stop debating.

what would the watchers do?

And did you really try suicide with a towel? Was it a real attempt? How upset were you? And was that really your dad posting? He seemed very cool...glad you have him.

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


The case to have her disconnected was argued in 1976, and she was disconnected then. She lived another nine years. There wouldn't have been a lot of point about disagreeing with the fight to take her off life-support once she was already off life support.

So is it impossible to discuss this later?

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Because we know better than to believe what a politician says. Any politician who says they are compasionate as they vote to cut veterans benefits and the right to decalre bankruptcy is either thoroughly insane, stupid, or deceitful, and possibly all three.

Im sorry but that didnt answer my qusetion you gave me your definition of politics and beliefs

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
While this is just a bit off topic, could you briefly describe one thing a RR Christian is trying to do to you to change anything about your thinking and/or lifestyle?

Are you really that ignorant? Okay, how about the most obvious, they want to force people to learn their religious beliefs in public schools, i.e. creationism, as well as stop the teaching of evolution where they can get away with it.

That's just one thing.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I can't believe how naive some of you are. The man went into court for the malpractice suit and swore he'd take care of Terri for the rest of her natural life. As soon as the money got put in the trust fund however, he started reneging on his promise. At first, he limited himself to do-not-resuscitate orders and denial of antibiotics to treat infections. Eventually, he petitioned the court to pull her feeding tube. And all throughout this, he was busy starting a new family. Sure, it's theoretically possible that he still loves her dearly, but you have to be really damn gullible to look at what's happened and draw that conclusion. That, or motivated by ideological considerations that make you unwilling to accept any possibilities that don't support your side...

Not only that, but it appears that witnesses were coached to lie concerning the truth about the state of Michael's marriage to Terri during the malpractice trial by Michael's counsel. Clearly Michael lied about the state of his marriage during that trial. One could easily conceive that Michael continued to lie and to suborn perjury thereafter, given the adverse financial and family interests he had.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
So, I take it Che, that you would agree that any proceeding where one was condemned to death without any counsel whatsoever is an unconstitutional proceeding?

In a criminal case, yes. This ain't a criminal case.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by TCO
So is it impossible to discuss this later?

No, but the way the mother said it made it seem as if it were a contemporary discussion and not after the fact.

[JohnT]

I think everybody on every side is pathetic in this sad, sorry spectacle. Your side, my side, their side... pathetic.

This is a decision that is made every day, every hour, in hospitals across the country. This isn't even the only one with a court case as baggage, but this is the one that has gone national.

Why? Why now?

Che thinks it's evil right-wingers, akin to my brother-in-law (a doctor) who thinks that this is a sideline assault on abortion rights. Others have seen in it a Constitutional question: who has the authority to decide "enough is enough" - the states? The feds? The judiciary? The legislature? Euthenasia advocates are being compared to ghouls, Right to lifers are being called vampires, and, on a more pragmatic level you can be sure the AMA is watching this closely, sending their legions of lobbyists out to "shape" the "Omnibus Terry Schiavo Bill" that you know is coming down the pike.

But that doesn't really explain it. These sort of issues are fought every day, without notice except to the participants, but suddenly this one breaks out and becomes a National Crisis or something. Why?

Me, I'm a firm believer in the concept of zeitgeist, the spirit of our times that helps form a psychological backdrop (and guide, even) to the stories and issues that we pay attention to. And for many years the American zeitgeist has been formed and guided by the Baby Boomer generation, from the "domestic simplicity" that many people look back upon the fifties as (because they were kids, and things are pretty simple to kids), to the "me generation" of the '70s, to finally their coming of age in the nineties with Bill Clinton, a stock market overflowing with Boomer's IRA's and 401k's, as they cheerily faced their retirements which seemed so far off.

And now they're beginning to face growing old (with those Ninties nest eggs dramatically reduced), which is why Medicare prescription drug benefits gets passed with almost no debate as to cost, which is why there is a sudden rush of interest in Social Security reform, which is why the youth vote was almost ignored this last election.

And with age comes death, a concept that they have been avoiding their entire lives until it was was shockingly re-introduced on a national, zeitgeistian level on that bright, sunny Tuesday morning.

I think that, for the boomers, 9-11 jump-started the tendency towards growing religiousness that occurs among people as they enter their senior years and start to face the fact that they could die at any time (the obvious religious overtones to the attacks can't be ignored either). The stunning success of The Passion of the Christ (do you think that movie would of at all succeeded in the "me decade" '70s?), and even the more stunning re-election of Dubya Bush (a man reviled and admired for his open religiosity) are but facets of this growing conservatism of the Boomers.

So you got a bunch of increasingly elderly people who are becoming more susceptable to religion while they are beginning to contemplate death for real this time, and then, all of a sudden they feel they, their country, their very way of life is somehow threatened by the Moslem Horde, so they open up their Bibles (many of them for the first time) and turn on their TV's to watch the War on Terror and think about their impending deaths, and what do you get?

Terry Schiavo. A generation of 75,000,000 people all of a sudden realizing Hey, this could be me in a decade or two!

It's gonna get worse before it gets better.

Thank you for reading my ramblings, I felt I had to contribute something to my thread.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Clearly Michael lied about the state of his marriage during that trial.

Did you read the USA Today article? Do you think the parents of Terri would be so friendly and supportive of someone who had been abusing their daughter in their own house?

Maybe you should read some of the legally established facts before listening to people coming out of the woodwork at the last minute. Crap, Ned, I know for you guys this is all new and fascining, but I've been listening to this since I moved to Florida three years ago, and all this character assassination is new. People are desperate to save the body's life and are making stuff up.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski

Im sorry but that didnt answer my qusetion you gave me your definition of politics and beliefs

You asked for an opinion. You got my opinion. I don't believe people posturing as compationate when their actions are anything but. If you tell me you love me as you are stabbing me, I won't believe you.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Ned


Not only that, but it appears that witnesses were coached to lie concerning the truth about the state of Michael's marriage to Terri during the malpractice trial by Michael's counsel. Clearly Michael lied about the state of his marriage during that trial. One could easily conceive that Michael continued to lie and to suborn perjury thereafter, given the adverse financial and family interests he had.

Ned! Stop!

You are assasinating the character of a man who has suffered a terrible tragedy with his wife, with allegations that you do not know to be facts, to serve a witless and politically self serving right to life position of an out of control fundamentalist organization who, if they got their way, would roll time back and establish a theocracy in place of our republic.

And for what end? It is more humane to let this woman go than for her to continue like this. Any common garden variety of fool can see that if THEY WOULD OPEN THEIR EYES AND LOOK. Gee, when you get saved do you suddenly stop thinking like forever, and just go about like robots doing what the preachers say????


Aaarrrggghh!

If God had his way this woman's body, along with her spirit, would have long ago passed on. SHE IS BEING KEPT ALIVE BY ARTIFICAL MEANS!!!

The Bush actions are numbskullery at best.