Another School shooting

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


You make a fantastic Frappacino Gian

Seek medical help.

[Ted Striker]

Of course if someone tries to jack me on the street you know I'm coming back strong with the crowbar!


(Not like I'd have a crowbar to begin with )

[Whaleboy]

Nah it's even easier! Get him to pop one in your leg so you need a walking stick, then proceed to beat him senseless with said stick, Monty Pyton style

[Whaleboy]

EDIT: Possibly crossed a line

[Shi Huangdi]

Not very liberal are you Whaleboy?

I have to studay for an exam real quick, but just a few points:

- There are many, many sucsessful defensive uses of handguns every year.

- US States with lower gun control also have less crime. Comparing the USA's crime rates to foreign crime rates is not relevant due to different social and cultural factors. The District of Columbia, which has the most gun control in the nation, also has the highest murder rate.

- Blaming the legality of concealed weapons for this is utterly rediculous. If you want to shoot up a school, it would be easy enough to hide a gun in your vehicle and drive the weapon to your school.

- Knowing our government's record in trying to stop illegal substance such as drugs and alcohol, it is difficult to see why it would be any better at stopping guns. Rather, it would only remove guns from the non-criminal element who would obey gun laws

- Philosophically, I would hold that self-defense is a basic human right steming from out right to life and the government should not interefer with it.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

- Blaming the legality of concealed weapons for this is utterly rediculous. If you want to shoot up a school, it would be easy enough to hide a gun in your vehicle and drive the weapon to your school.

Concealed weapons specifically are used more than any other weapon. There is a reason for that.

They are, well, concealable.

The kids at Columbine even used a machine pistol and a sawed off shotgun.

[Shi Huangdi]

For shooting up a school though, it doesn't really matter what the law is on concealing. It would be easy enough to carry whatever weapon it is in your vehicle, drive that to school, and then when you arrived you could just charge right on in, regardless on the legality of concealed weapons.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html

David Lampo is the publications director at the Cato Institute.

The number of well-publicized public shootings during the past few years, especially the tragedy at Columbine High School, has re-energized the gun control movement. As a show of strength, a coalition of gun control groups has organized a "Million Mom March" to be held in Washington, D.C. on Mother's Day, an event designed to stir up emotions rather than promote rational thought. And when one looks at the facts about gun control, it's easy to see why the anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.

Think you know the facts about gun control? If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.

1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.

False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.

2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.

False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.

3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.

False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.

4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.

True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.

False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."

6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.

False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let's hope more people are catching on.

[Sava]

ahhh yes the "wisdom" of the cato institute... ROFL

[Dis]

10 people dead now.

It is believed the shooter died not by suicide, but in a gunfight with police.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
For shooting up a school though, it doesn't really matter what the law is on concealing. It would be easy enough to carry whatever weapon it is in your vehicle, drive that to school, and then when you arrived you could just charge right on in, regardless on the legality of concealed weapons.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html

Still, most gun crimes are committed with concealed weapons.

It takes alot more trouble to use a non concealed weapon than not.

People are gonna notice when you whip out a rifle or a shotgun.

[Space05us]

Personally I think all handguns should be illegal. It's funny we can outlaw sawed off shotguns, but not handguns. I don't get it.

Handguns shouldnt be illegal, they should be a lot harder and expensive to get but not illegal. Gun registration (including ballistics analysis) and owner fingerprinting should be mandatory in all states, as well as safety classes. Also if a handgun gets "stolen" and is not reported the lawful owner should be held partialy responsible for any crime commited using that gun.


As for the school shooting its unfortunate and the kid should have never been able to get to the gun in the first place.

[Dis]

and what about the idea of not restricting guns which goes against the constitution, but restriction ammunition? Granted, that's a bit harder to restrict as many people know how to load their own bullets. But most of these types of guns nuts aren't criminals. Of course it is very likely they will sell their ammunition on the black market. And ammunition is a fire hazard, you'd think they could restrict it if they had to.

[Space05us]

and what about the idea of not restricting guns which goes against the constitution, but restriction ammunition? Granted, that's a bit harder to restrict as many people know how to load their own bullets. But most of these types of guns nuts aren't criminals. Of course it is very likely they will sell their ammunition on the black market. And ammunition is a fire hazard, you'd think they could restrict it if they had to.

Its the same thing as restricting guns, the gun and the bullet together make the weapon.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
It's a problem that needs more than gun controls though, consider Japan. A long history of big long sharp things, it takes social struggle and a long war with China to arrest that, because it's something that has penetrated popular history and culture... kind of like a teenager that still wets the bed.

Please get your facts straight before you stick your foot in your mouth. In Japan the populace has almost always been forbidden to own weapons. Only the Samurai were permitted weapons, and at the height of their power any Samurai could execute a peasant for any reason without repercussions.

Therefore, Japan's long history is of lack of weapons for private citizens and enforcing conformity with tactics that make modern police states look like amateurs.

Originally posted by Dissident
and what about the idea of not restricting guns which goes against the constitution, but restriction ammunition? Granted, that's a bit harder to restrict as many people know how to load their own bullets. But most of these types of guns nuts aren't criminals.

Except, of course, that as soon as you restrict ammunition the hand-loader becomes criminal...

Yes, let's not restrict free speech, instead we'll restrict the use of vocal chords and ink. So you'd be allowed to say or print anything as long as you didn't use these restricted means. Try using semaphore and chalkboards instead.

Of course it is very likely they will sell their ammunition on the black market. And ammunition is a fire hazard, you'd think they could restrict it if they had to.

What a moronic thing to say. Please show me a case where a house fire has been caused or even significantly augmented by stored personal ammunition.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
ahhh yes the "wisdom" of the cato institute... ROFL

Bash the source and not the facts. Nice one.

I'd appreciate that you people who hate America, go piss on your own freedoms.. not ours.