“Cows look calm, but really they are gay nymphomaniacs"

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
On what grounds do you justify the belief that only human beings can be self-aware? Is there any evidence that there is some sort of cutoff for self awareness?

This is a flimsy bit of logic, as it makes a huge, unjustified assumption.

Did you even read my post? I wouldn't think that even they are self-aware, except for what I mentioned. I don't assume "only humans can be self-aware" - but my default assumption is that something is NOT self-aware, because there's virtually no way to establish that something is self-aware except through the logic that I used to explain why I believe humans are.

[General Ludd]

Read the thread that spiffor linked too Boris (actually, don't just skip to the last couple pages - it's all the ****ing same), Kuci's argument all comes down to there being no free will, and that humans (including himself, apparently) incorrectly think that they have a free will as a result of their inheritely mentally retarded nature. Consciousness is just a state of being stupid.

[ajbera]

Here's a great opportunity for capitalists - start a "cruelty-free" slaughterhouse! All animals given a good life, killed individually and as painlessly as possible, then you charge 5x what supermarkets charge and sell via internet/FedEx to those who need a burger but can't abide the thought of Bessie's pain and suffering.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by ajbera
those who need a burger but can't abide the thought of Bessie's pain and suffering.

That would be what veggie burgers are for...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by General Ludd



That would be what veggie burgers are for...

I wonder if any veggie burger tastes even remotely like beef.

If it can't resemble the taste of beef at least as much as a mcdonalds burger patty, I don't know that I could ever even try such a substitute.

(yes I'm quite aware that a mcdonalds beef patty is setting the standard incredibly low )

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I wonder if any veggie burger tastes even remotely like beef.

If it can't resemble the taste of beef at least as much as a mcdonalds burger patty, I don't know that I could ever even try such a substitute.

(yes I'm quite aware that a mcdonalds beef patty is setting the standard incredibly low )

I believe the pointabout good vegetarian cuisine (and good vegan for that matter) is not that it replicates the taste or texture of meat (or fish or fowl) but that it is good in itself.


A notable feature of French cuisine, especially haute cuisine, is that a great deal of emphasis is placed on the quality of the meat or fish, or fowl, and accompanying reductions, veloute sauces, jus, et cetera, but that vegetables are very much overlooked, except if they are a first course, such as white asparagus.


Chinese Buddhist cuisine often uses gluten based substitutes for beef, or duck, or pork, the best of which resemble the meats they are meant to be to the extent that mock duck even has the 'goosepimples' associated with having been plucked. You can even have chicken's blood casserole which has been no nearer a chicken than McDonald's slurry McNuggets, and is much healthier.


I very rarely crave meat, but will eat it occasionally.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by molly bloom


I believe the pointabout good vegetarian cuisine (and good vegan for that matter) is not that it replicates the taste or texture of meat (or fish or fowl) but that it is good in itself.

Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by General Ludd



Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

I suspect you are a vegitarian because you don't like meat and the moral issues are just a convenient opportunity to indulge in a little self righteous superiority

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Did you even read my post? I wouldn't think that even they are self-aware, except for what I mentioned. I don't assume "only humans can be self-aware" - but my default assumption is that something is NOT self-aware, because there's virtually no way to establish that something is self-aware except through the logic that I used to explain why I believe humans are.

Yes, I read your post, you seemed to have missed the point of mine--that your default assumption is groundless. By your logic, it would be just as reasonable to assume other humans aren't self-aware, that they're just automatons reacting to stimuli. Because the only "proof" we have of self-awareness is our own consciousness.

To segregate humans out as the only assumed self-aware beings is silly, since we have *no* way of knowing whether anything else is self-aware or not.

But, the fact that we do have self-awareness is, in and of itself, reason to believe that other species possess it, to carying degrees. As Ernst Mayr said, human consciousness is an evolutionary product that arose from animal consciousness. I find it puzzling you are an atheist who believes in evolution, yet seem to think there is some magical "on" switch for consciousness that only humans have and other species don't. That doesn't make much biological sense. What makes more sense is that there are varying degrees of self-awareness that species possess. Ours may be the most developed, but that doesn't mean there's some magical, mystical barrier between us and [other] animals.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by General Ludd
Exactly.... the veggie burgers that try to taste like meat are always the worst (probably because they do taste similiar to meat) and the ones that just try to taste good are... well, good.

To some extent, I agree--but I've had wonderful examples of "imitative" vegetarian food. A new vegan restaurant just opened near my office, and I've been to lunch there a few times. They have a vegetarian meatball sub and a vegetarian reuben that are both really delicious.

Also, Morningstar Farms products are usually quite tasty, especially their vegetarian buffalo wings and chicken patties.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I suspect you are a vegitarian because you don't like meat

Stunning deduction, Mr. Holmes!

[OzzyKP]

Doesn't change my eating habits either. But over time I am coming around to the idea that eating animals is immoral and barbaric. Problem is, they are so damn tasty.

If vegitarianism became easier, more widely accepted and practiced, and if vegitarian food didn't taste so damn bad I could go for it.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Dissident
btw I'm a vegan. Because I live in Las Vegas.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Some people used to be bred and raised for the purpose of being exploited for labor. We call them slaves. We all find that institution repugnant, don't we?

In a future society (since you brought up the Matrix), if human beings were used for such a purpose, we'd all find it an atrocity. So what's different about animals? Sure, they aren't "human," but does that in and of itself make a justification, or prove they somehow don't have consciousness/emotions/self-awareness/whatever?

Meh. If they do have a consciousness, it's probably rather different from mine. And such contradictions taught me long ago to value my species for its kinship to me, not for any projected ideas of theoretical cognition. A tree probably "feels" every stroke of the lumberjack's axe. Something happens to tell it, biochemically, that it is being damaged. It's a more agonizing way to die than anything used on human criminals in the civilized world. We still do it though, because it's just a tree.

Trying to project ideas of "how it feels" will inevitably give you the heebie-jeebies if you think about it long and hard enough, it's just easier for some animals which are more readily anthropomorphized. That kind of vegetarianism strikes me as off-balance and overly sentimental, comparable to deciding which endangered species to save based on which one is most easily trained to do cute tricks. I reject all platforms of rights based on ability.

Imagine all the millions of bacteria you kill when you microwave a burrito. If you heat a microbe, does it not shrivel? If you ***** it, does it not bleed cytoplasm? If you wrong it, does it not mutate to a resistant form and revenge? Suppose the burrito contains a rare and unique form of bacterium--you might be committing genocide!

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Elok
I reject all platforms of rights based on ability.

How would this apply, I wonder to youth rights?

If ability is a non-issue, then upon what basis are rights denied to youth? Shouldn't then, their common humanity warrant them equality before the law?