Rugby - Hands Off, Wattle!

[LDiCesare]

But Italy had just, literally, arrived from Argentina and would have been jetlagged and exhausted.

That's what's worrying me for France too. They may have some time to recover before the match, but they will be jetlagged too, and have a whole French rugby season in the legs whereas the Wallabies will be much fresher physically. That's usual wiht tours, of course.

A pity about O'Driscoll. If the tackle was illegal, the tacklers should have been red carded. You are not supposed to dump a player but accompany him to the ground.

[finbar]

O'Driscoll seems to have said (or at least implied) that it was a spear tackle which is foul play and, I would assume, a red card offence. The citing official seems to have decided otherwise. Based on Kalius' observation, it sounds like it should have been, at least, a penalty. Having not seen it I don't know what happened.

[ravagon]

Great pity about BO'D.
I of course didn't see it either.
I wonder though whether they may've dropped him after realising that he didn't have the ball anymore? The Bok match referee has dismissed it without comment apparently.
I'm not sure what happened with the other Lions injury (one of the others is out too IIRC).

Grewcock out for a couple of months for the Mike Tyson impersonation.
Probably understandable I guess.
Ironic that Ali Williams, much maligned, turned out to be pretty much the star of the game ... apparently.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
Zinzan:

"Most of the New Zealand public have written the Lions off and are talking more about the margin of victory in the first Test rather than worrying about whether the men in black will win it.

The New Zealand public and media are doing their usual thing of thinking their rugby side are unbeatable. But that has been disproven so many times before.

A team needs to be brimming with confidence, in fact arrogance. But there is a fine line between that and over-confidence and that, to me, is the All Blacks' biggest weakness."

And there you have it - the Lions best chance is that NZ run out in the same frame of mind they did in the RWC semi - thinking they had already won the final?

Where is Ravagon when you need a good rise?

Damn.

Great pity I missed this last week. I would've come up with something to the effect of the Lions best chance not being terribly high then? Well, assuming that I could get over the sheer shock effect of your quoting Zinny without responding with the usual associated verbal barrage, let alone your apparent attempt to take his comments seriously.

Unfortunately it loses a little something with the benefit of hindsight though?

[Edit: Hmmm. Forget about blaming injuries, tactics or even Clives selection policy. Here's the real reason why the Lions lost. http://www.planetrugby.com/Tournamen...ry_44462.shtml ]

[Frozzy]

BOD is the one being flipped (obviously)

Tana is between BOD and the camera
Mealamu is driving BOD up.

How could this not be cited? The ball, FYI, is 30 yards to the right. As seen by lack of a scrum-half, and the Lions winger pointing at the incident.

Sickening.

[Frozzy]

The law:

Law 10.4 (e) [...]Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play.
10.4 (f) Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player must not hold, or push, or charge into, or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball.

The ruck is over (ball has been cleared long ago), BOD is nowhere near the ball, and Keven/Tana are doing 3 of the things law 10.4f makes verboten.

[ravagon]

From the looks of that clip all players concerned are still disentangling themselves. I'm not sure that Mealamu even realises that the ball isn't around anymore. Mealamu is going to ground along with O'Driscoll and Tana seems to be more interested in getting him out of the way and getting himself back to where the action is. Too carelessly, perhaps.

It looks unfortunate but I can't see that it was intentional, particulary with the linesman < 5m away...

[Frozzy]

The only other player there is the tackled player

[Frozzy]

It also appears Tana's left shoulder is helping aid Mealamu in the dumping of BOD.

[Frozzy]

Another sickening thing is that Tana dumps him, he knows he is upside down when he drops him, and then he runs off to the back line.

[Havak]

It doesn’t have to be intentional as such Ravagon – it only needs to be dangerous in the execution for citing to occur. It’s an important distinction – and the execution of that double tackle was lethal. Just look at the clip Ravagon – you simply cannot defend them. Where was the ball? It’s only a tackle if the player is a ball carrier! He is being speared into the ground with the ball nowhere near as kalius points out!!! You cannot excuse it by saying the hooker is too thick to know the ball has gone or that Tana is being 'Careless'!

There is a real danger of this staining the ABs badly I am afraid. The Lions are of course similarly stained for Grewcock going psycho (and after I defended him!). Danny must never don the white or red again.

If only Martin was there though – neither AB would have walked away scot free from the situation then I assure you. It called for a 99 call perhaps?

And Finbar is the one who rails on Zinny old bean – not me!

Anyway as for the rugby I have never seen such a poor performance from a Lions test side – and I’ve watched them all from the 93 series onwards (Only saw highlights of the 89 tour – enjoyable though!). Some of the decision making with what little ball they had beggared belief.

The far better side won – and only the weather prevented it being a total thumping. The kicking game plan sucked a*** big time – and the Irish hooker became Lardy mark 2. You cannot lose ten of your own line outs and expect to win a game!

The tour is over – bring the boys home and lets address the fundamental problems with our domestic structure so squads are arriving far fresher on these tours.

Oh England won the Churchill cup – beating Argentina comprehensively (as the Lions failed to do). Hope for the future then – but a torrid time right now.

I was looking for the positives from the Lions but it was hard – Ryan Jones looked good, Corry worked hard and Lewsey was solid in defence. Little more springs to mind – Backy did what he could but the ABs were winning the contact so he was living off scraps. The honour tunnel after the game was nicely constructed.

Corry has been scape goated – dropped to the mid week team. That’s vintage Clive – fixing the wrong problems. Thank god Robinson has been dropped though – he was useless. Thomas is now skipper – strange choice as he offered no leadership last Saturday.

I guess we should talk about the foul play again – I did not see Grewcock’s madness but I will not defend it in any way. O’Connell deserved his yellow for cynical play. I did feel Chris Jack should have been carded for his wrap and spear on O’Connell in the line out – it was dangerous. It wouldn’t have made any difference of course.

But the big issue of course is O’Driscoll. I only saw the aftermath live as four black shirts rose from around him and he never got up but on subsequent viewings I am satisfied that dangerous foul play occurred. The Bok citing official didn’t think it was foul play and that is hardly a surprise I guess – I would have been more surprised if he had made a correct decision. O’Driscoll is sure of what happened to him. Clive will certainly get into trouble for what he has said about the citing official – so what is new.

The thing is O’Driscoll is not a whiner – never has been – and he is convinced he was illegally dump tackled by Umaga and the hooker (note they are not necessarily claiming deliberate intentions but that the net result of the double tackle made was dangerous foul play). Between him and a Bok official I have to say I am inclined to automatically believe Brian on it. We haven’t heard the last of this I am sure – big fine for Clive without a doubt?

Ah what does it matter – it’s going to be 3-0 now as there was no glimmer of hope anywhere in the first test for the Lions. It would take a turn around of Aussie like proportions and I don’t think this squad has that character.

And you know what – I don’t think the ABs will then win the tri nations. They should of course – but I just don’t think they will. Every time they pump themselves up like this someone always lets their tyres down fairly quickly.

[finbar]

I can't really see a lot of detail in the posted image. It's too grainy on my p*ssy little laptop. But from what I can see it seems well worthy of review. Clive really is a master of hypocrisy and the smokescreen. He insinuates all sorts of heinous thing about the tackle; doesn't ask within 12 hours of the end of the match for it to be referred as the tour rules - to which he is a signatory - require; overcomes his failure to refer the matter by criticising the 12-hour rule on the basis that it puts too much pressure on citing officials; and slates the citing official for not taking the matter of the tackle further. There's no doubting his tapdancing skills. Now let's see how good a coach he is. The pattern that emerged with his England coaching post-J**** is, methinks, repeating itself here. J**** made Clive's reputation. Now, in his absence, J**** might well sink that reputation. Oh, and to make his life more difficult, leaving J**** aside, I don't think this squad has much of the class of the mob that toured here.

Anyway, because I can't make out enough detail of the tackle, I can only say that I've never seen Tana Umaga (or Mr Mealamu, for that matter) indulge in deliberately foul play. I only say that because some hysterics - on a web board that shall remain nameless - are of the view that it was a deliberate assault on O'Driscoll to take him out of the game. As you say, Havak, there's a difference between intentional and dangerous, and dangerous qualifies for examination. The problem, of course, is that the result - the extent of the injury - colours the situation. What if O'Driscoll had got up and walked away? Would there be the same storm?

To other matters. If not the Taffy as skipper, who else? Are there any other national skippers in the squad? Corry, I suppose. If he's been named in the midweek team, does that mean he's out of the next Test? I'd've thought it time Clive actually gave his Test team time together in match conditions. They only seemed to meet as a unit on Saturday. The ridiculous size of the tour party - okay, injuries have to be covered - seems to have meant the A group rarely have seen each other in match conditions.

Barring miracles, I also expect the ABs to sweep the series. Your point about the Tri-Nations is an interesting - if cynical - one. Not without basis, anyway. They're undoubtedly a better team without Carlos - possibly a shame, because he was very entertaining - because they're better organised even if more conventional. We beat them last year - with Carlos - with lightning, swarming defence that choked their supply. And if you're going to kick against them, you have to be deadly accurate. If kicking long, kick it out - and well out, over the fence - or it will come charging back at you at three times the speed. I actually don't think they choked last season. Eddie, to his credit, out-thought them. It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.

[child of Thor]

Imho that tackle was definately a spear tackle - after he had lifted Brian, the way he followed through as O'Driscol was put into the ground is almost a perfect spear tackle.

That should be a banning offense.

Grewcock got his just rewards for his behaviour. As someone who saw his head-stamping on Dwayne Peel in the six-nations, he is a known quantity and most refs seem to know that too.

Still i think O'Driscole has every right to be pissed.

Still it doesn't help the lions much. It seems they have a nearly impossible mountain to climb to get anything positive out of the tour

[Havak]

They can aim for respectability – and try to put in two good showings.

There's no doubting his tapdancing skills. Now let's see how good a coach he is.

Oh I think I’ve seen enough of this to make my mind up.

I hadn’t realised his complaint was made outside agreed time limits btw. Not that I agree either player should get off with it because a time limit had elapsed either.

I don't think this squad has much of the class of the mob that toured here.

On paper it is actually better. But in reality as you say it is not showing that.

As you say, Havak, there's a difference between intentional and dangerous, and dangerous qualifies for examination

The crucial thing for me is that the execution of the double tackle was reckless at best in how they picked him up between them. I know it is not easy in the heat of a game but it was a move more at home in Pro Wrestling. I don’t think for a moment that Umaga is a man who would deliberately indulge in foul play – I do think he messed up and has not covered himself in glory since by hiding from it and behaving badly at the time. Why for example did he not check BOD as he was stretchered off. It is protocol to check a player injured in a tackle you made as he leaves the field. It is protocol to check an opposing skipper in the same situation. Two strikes from Tana who did not do so. Why I wonder? He always seems such a nice bloke when interviewed.

And why are the All Blacks hiding him from the media? He is the skipper and should be the public face? Guilty conscience as the other board is suggesting?

Bulloch, Corry, Back, Dawson have all skippered their country. But Thomas is I suppose a logical choice – not being English for starters.

Corry is the sacrifical lamb. Playing tomorrow rules him out (and Backy) because Saturday would make three games in eight days – against a side fresh as a daisy who stuffed you last time out. Yes playing tomorrow rules anyone out who played last Saturday I think.

It will be interesting to see what happens this time around.

But even with crafty old Eddie to one side the Boks also beat them – not something I expected given even a poor England side dispatched the Boks subsequently.

[finbar]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Havak [/SIZE
I hadn’t realised his complaint was made outside agreed time limits btw. Not that I agree either player should get off with it because a time limit had elapsed either.

The tackle was reviewed by the Bok judiciary chap - he who banned Grewcock - because it (the tackle) was referred to him by the game official, an Australian. The Australian game official obviously thought it was worth a look. The Bok judiciary chap, having watched it countless times from as many angles, decided it didn't warrant pursuing. Rightly or wrongly.

There wasn't any official Lions complaint in terms of citing. (As I said, it was the Australian match official who referred it) There was a lot of immediate post-match fury, but nothing happened beyond that. It has to be done within 12 hours of the match, and they didn't. That was the basis of Clive's, um, smokescreen about needing to re-examine the citing law. He was so worked up over the tackle that I can't believe he forgot. I suspect he - and/or the management team - didn't know the rules. That's why there's now talk of taking it further. To the IRB. They didn't actually get around to acting at the time. As you say, players shouldn't get away with things because of lapses of time. But they didn't. They were exonerated by the Bok judiciary chap called into action by the Australian match official.

On paper it is actually better. But in reality as you say it is not showing that.

Better on paper? Truly? My memory of that mob that toured here is that it was driven by the nucleus of an England team then nearing its peak. This group has a nucleus of England players either past their peak, injury-burdened - why was Hill selected? - or not of great quality.

The crucial thing for me is that the execution of the double tackle was reckless at best in how they picked him up between them. I know it is not easy in the heat of a game but it was a move more at home in Pro Wrestling.

From what I've read, I have to agree.

I don’t think for a moment that Umaga is a man who would deliberately indulge in foul play – I do think he messed up and has not covered himself in glory since by hiding from it and behaving badly at the time. Why for example did he not check BOD as he was stretchered off. It is protocol to check a player injured in a tackle you made as he leaves the field. It is protocol to check an opposing skipper in the same situation. Two strikes from Tana who did not do so. Why I wonder? He always seems such a nice bloke when interviewed.

Yes, that's all a bit of a mystery to me. Tana Umaga is always very good at that sort of thing.

And why are the All Blacks hiding him from the media? He is the skipper and should be the public face? Guilty conscience as the other board is suggesting?

Who knows who is pulling the strings? I'm sure Umaga is hating every minute of it all.

Corry is the sacrifical lamb. Playing tomorrow rules him out (and Backy) because Saturday would make three games in eight days – against a side fresh as a daisy who stuffed you last time out. Yes playing tomorrow rules anyone out who played last Saturday I think.

Clive is stuffed, I'd've thought. He said he would pick on form and didn't. So he called it picking experience. What does he do now? Pick on form?