Has the happy little boat of Canada sprung a leak?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by techumseh
I'm tempted by Agathon's argument, however the best argument for federalism was made by Pierre Trudeau who said the division of powers amoung several governments would protect against unilateral decisons which could threaten people's civil rights.

As for the bickering over a share of the fed's pie, this is not only not unusual, it's the norm in Canadian politics.

It's not the norm when the brain trust in Ontario begin to question the fundamentals of the situation.

[notyoueither]

I should say that I have an insight(?) on the issue that is not obvious from the posted articles.

I listened to Naylor on the radio today. He all but said that equalization had been rigged to keep Quebec in Confederation. He said it was rigged. He said that Quebec got the greatest benefit of the rigging. He just never put a to b and came out and said it.

I was wondering if he were a Tory. Then I checked and saw the noises that McGuinty is making. Having heard the problems Ontario has been going through, it falls into place.

Federalism by bribery is not sustainable. Some people in Ontario are starting to say so. The debate over the next while wil be interesting, and will dwarf the schenanigans coming to light in the Gomrey enquiry. What is at question is the fundamental basis of Liberal governments of Canada, that being to bribe Quebec to stay.

Either that or the Liberals really want to sweep Gomrey out of the news. Erm...

[Agathon]

Listen sweetheart, if the Gov of Alberta yelled help, there would be American tanks parked all over this province before the PM discovered he didn't have a thing to say about the matter.

Sorry, but You guys out west sure have some funny ideas.

I'm tempted by Agathon's argument, however the best argument for federalism was made by Pierre Trudeau who said the division of powers amoung several governments would protect against unilateral decisons which could threaten people's civil rights.

Except it never does.

It multiplies bureaucracy and leads to each side blaming the other instead of getting stuff done. It's like Catch-22, where the generals are more interested in screwing each other over than the Germans.

[Az]

If the free child-care program is decided to be a federal issue, it should be funded and run equally, from the federal level, with no relation to state, on a per capita basis, not a "who gets more, and who pays less": after all, it's not like the citizens of these provinces are statically placed in those provinces, and the mobility between the provinces is, or should be far larger than the one between countries.

I must admit that I haven't fully understood the proposed program, tho.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

Listen sweetheart, if the Gov of Alberta yelled help, there would be American tanks parked all over this province before the PM discovered he didn't have a thing to say about the matter.

Sorry, but You guys out west sure have some funny ideas.

No. you think we have no choice. You are very ignorant of the possibilities.

[Agathon]

No. you think we have no choice. You are very ignorant of the possibilities.

No. You have no choice. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can get on with your lives.

The US invading Alberta.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Azazel
If the free child-care program is decided to be a federal issue, it should be funded and run equally, from the federal level, with no relation to state, on a per capita basis, not a "who gets more, and who pays less": after all, it's not like the citizens of these provinces are statically placed in those provinces, and the mobility between the provinces is, or should be far larger than the one between countries.

I must admit that I haven't fully understood the proposed program, tho.

The problem is that the structure as it stands is bankrupting the richest province of the country, Ontario. Forget about adding childcare to the equation.

Now that there is a federal surplus, the special interests are lining up to get their hands on it.

The problem is that the surplus is based on overtaxation of the haves. When you are better off to be a poor child in Manitoba than in Ontario, there is a problem.

The real problem is that the fed usurps the power of taxation and the provinces are left with the bills. That's a fundamental faux pas for responsible government.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

No. you think we have no choice. You are very ignorant of the possibilities.

No. You have no choice. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can get on with your lives.

The US invading Alberta.

It's not an invasion if it is invited, laughing boy.

[Agathon]

The problem is that the structure as it stands is bankrupting the richest province of the country, Ontario. Forget about adding childcare to the equation.

No it isn't. The problem is that Ontarians want the government to spend more, but are unwilling to be taxed more. Ontario's current problems are entirely due to the stupidity of Ontarians. Same with health premiums.

After all, these are the people who wanted to force teachers to work extra hours without more pay so that they wouldn't have to pay for child care. The provincial government here has outlived its usefulness.

Not only that, the Liberals are cheaping out on Toronto. Subway fares are due to go up yet again, and the service will become even more inefficient, and there will be even more pollution and gridlock.

[Az]

The problem is that the structure as it stands is bankrupting the richest province of the country, Ontario. Forget about adding childcare to the equation.

Now that there is a federal surplus, the special interests are lining up to get their hands on it.

The problem is that the surplus is based on overtaxation of the haves. When you are better off to be a poor child in Manitoba than in Ontario, there is a problem.

The real problem is that the fed usurps the power of taxation and the provinces are left with the bills. That's a fundamental faux pas for responsible government.

I am not sure I get this: Each province is forced to pay to the fed. gov.? isn't there some sort of Federal taxation mechanism in place for fed. gov. revenue?

[Agathon]

It's not an invasion if it is invited, laughing boy.

Let me get you straight. The US will interfere in an internal Canadian political spat, thus creating an enemy of its greatest trading partner and making itself a pariah state among all its closest allies.

This isn't Kosovo, you loon. What are you guys smoking out there?

[Agathon]

I am not sure I get this: Each province is forced to pay to the fed. gov.? isn't there some sort of Federal taxation mechanism in place for fed. gov. revenue?

There are equalization payments. This means that rich provinces transfer wealth to poorer provinces to help support things like health care. It's exactly what goes on in Israel and New Zealand, except that the existence of provincial governments makes it more obvious and more of a political football.

But Ontario's problems are not caused by that, but by stupid Ontarians who won't pay for the government services they want. Now they want other parts of Canada to suffer because of their own fecklessness.

[techumseh]

Are you from Alberta? I am, and I think your proposition is absurd. If Canada was going red, then some sort of intervention would be guaranteed. But that's so far from what's going on, it is laughable. There, see?

What's going on is what ALWAYS goes on. The provinces and the feds are arguing over money. Big deal.

BTW, why do you start these things just as I'm going to bed?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Azazel

The problem is that the structure as it stands is bankrupting the richest province of the country, Ontario. Forget about adding childcare to the equation.

Now that there is a federal surplus, the special interests are lining up to get their hands on it.

The problem is that the surplus is based on overtaxation of the haves. When you are better off to be a poor child in Manitoba than in Ontario, there is a problem.

The real problem is that the fed usurps the power of taxation and the provinces are left with the bills. That's a fundamental faux pas for responsible government.

I am not sure I get this: Each province is forced to pay to the fed. gov.? isn't there some sort of Federal taxation mechanism in place for fed. gov. revenue?

That's the problem for a province like Ontario. Federal taxation is two-thirds to three-quarters of the total tax bill on each worker.

However, social programs are three quarters of total government expenditures (I made that up, but it is closer to that than one half).

The predicament Ontario is in is that they have the obligation to deliver the services, but do not have the power over the purse. It is all too easy for the federal government of the day to engage in regional favouritism and the government of Ontario to get shafted on funding for services to the very people who paid the money into the federal coffers.

[Az]

to such, if exist: Either make the things currently subsidized a federal issue, or make them independent of each other financially.

It's just bad book-keeping, as far as I see.

And yes, I know such exist elsewhere too. Here, local authorities get a small chunk of the money of the central government. They're bad there, as well.