Has the happy little boat of Canada sprung a leak?

[Agathon]

The problem is that the surplus is based on overtaxation of the haves. When you are better off to be a poor child in Manitoba than in Ontario, there is a problem.

1. There is, properly speaking, no such thing as "overtaxation".

2. Ontarians do not pay enough tax to cover the services that they want. They could easily pay for them if they wanted to, but they have become tax averse.

3. The Federal Government is spending the surplus on things Canadians need. It isn't as if Ontarians have no power in its decisions, since Ontario is where Federal elections are largely decided.

[Agathon]

The predicament Ontario is in is that they have the obligation to deliver the services, but do not have the power over the purse.

Yes they do. They can raise provincial taxes. But Ontarians don't want that, so McGuinty is blaming the Feds.

Ontario politics since I have been here involves whining about taxes and then whining about loss of services because of tax cuts.

Ontario is incredibly wealthy. If Ontarians want these services, they can pay for them. But then Ontarians would have to cut private spending, which they won't do. So they are shooting themselves in the head.

[notyoueither]

Az,

The only reason Alberta hasn't screamed, louder, is resource revenues have topped up provincial coffers and made the province able to bridge the gaps, and then some.

It was not always thus. When oil was $20 per barrel and we were in the midst of the NEP we were hurting, big time.

Ontario has no such cushion of revenue they have direct control over. I'm just surprised it took so long to become an issue.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

The problem is that the surplus is based on overtaxation of the haves. When you are better off to be a poor child in Manitoba than in Ontario, there is a problem.

1. There is, properly speaking, no such thing as "overtaxation".

2. Ontarians do not pay enough tax to cover the services that they want. They could easily pay for them if they wanted to, but they have become tax averse.

3. The Federal Government is spending the surplus on things Canadians need. It isn't as if Ontarians have no power in its decisions, since Ontario is where Federal elections are largely decided.

The people of Ontario already paid the taxes, the problem is who they paid them to.

If the federal govt has enough money to waste a quarter billion on flags for Quebec (50% going to government friendly ad agencies) and $2 billion on a data base to keep track of guns for 30 million residents (count it, it's about $66 per person and they still can't tell who has what) then they have alltogether too much of our money and the provinces have alltogether too little.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

The predicament Ontario is in is that they have the obligation to deliver the services, but do not have the power over the purse.

Yes they do. They can raise provincial taxes. But Ontarians don't want that, so McGuinty is blaming the Feds.

Ontario politics since I have been here involves whining about taxes and then whining about loss of services because of tax cuts.

Ontario is incredibly wealthy. If Ontarians want these services, they can pay for them. But then Ontarians would have to cut private spending, which they won't do. So they are shooting themselves in the head.

You can't raise taxes as if you are in a vacumm. They only recently benefitted from the exodus from Quebec, and then suffered their own to the West.

People in Ontario are likely to pick up and move to a more beneficial jurisdiction when you screw with them like that.

Again, they already paid the money. Now they need the benefits to be distributed in a more equitable way.

[Agathon]

The people of Ontario already paid the taxes, the problem is who they paid them to.

No. The problem is that Ontarians have become tax averse. Of course any national entitlement to anything is going to cost Ontario more than all the other Canadian provinces - that's because it is the richest province. Similarly, rich people in Canada pay more tax than poor people. That's how things work in modern societies.

Poor Ontarians will receive much the same benefits as poor Newfies if the scheme is instituted. So saying it is a bad deal for Ontario is misguided. It's a bad deal for the people whose votes McGuinty wants.

The Government of Ontario is in trouble, not because of equalization payments or anything like that, but because Ontarians have become irrationally tax averse. Their legal obligation to provide services like health care is what keeps the place from becoming a disaster zone. But in order to do that, they've been cheaping out on other things, like Toronto for instance.

Your second article is a good swipe against provincialism too.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by techumseh
Are you from Alberta? I am, and I think your proposition is absurd. If Canada was going red, then some sort of intervention would be guaranteed. But that's so far from what's going on, it is laughable. There, see?

What's going on is what ALWAYS goes on. The provinces and the feds are arguing over money. Big deal.

BTW, why do you start these things just as I'm going to bed?

heh. It is troll vs troll. Don;t worry 'bout it.

Where are you? And why do you go to bed too early?

[Agathon]

People in Ontario are likely to pick up and move to a more beneficial jurisdiction when you screw with them like that.

Let them go then. Wherever they move in Canada, the same rules apply (except Quebec - and how many Anglos really want to move there). You cannot avoid being taxed to pay for national health care and national programs in Canada.

If they want to move to the US then good riddance. I suspect most won't.

And the reason they can't raise taxes has to do with the whiny middle class. Harris cut spending and eventually got thrown out because he created a disaster. But even though that happened, Ontarians have got it into their heads that services should improve but taxes should stay the same. That's dumb and they only have themselves to blame.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

It's not an invasion if it is invited, laughing boy.

Let me get you straight. The US will interfere in an internal Canadian political spat, thus creating an enemy of its greatest trading partner and making itself a pariah state among all its closest allies.

This isn't Kosovo, you loon. What are you guys smoking out there?

You said we had no choice, Aggy. I simply pointed out that when it came to American supplies of oil and natural gas, we have a choice.

Not to mention, how do you posit that Quebec has a power that other provinces do not?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

People in Ontario are likely to pick up and move to a more beneficial jurisdiction when you screw with them like that.

Let them go then. Wherever they move in Canada, the same rules apply (except Quebec - and how many Anglos really want to move there). You cannot avoid being taxed to pay for national health care and national programs in Canada.

If they want to move to the US then good riddance. I suspect most won't.

And the reason they can't raise taxes has to do with the whiny middle class. Harris cut spending and eventually got thrown out because he created a disaster. But even though that happened, Ontarians have got it into their heads that services should improve but taxes should stay the same. That's dumb and they only have themselves to blame.

They aren't avoiding being taxed for healthcare! They already paid for it! Now they need the funds to get to the ****ing people who paid the ****ing taxes!

Is this some new math you are challenged by?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


I'm sure the US could use thirteen more states.

They had their chance!

[Dinner]

Besides we'd only take 12 of them since we don't want the Frenchies.

[Agathon]

You said we had no choice, Aggy. I simply pointed out that when it came to American supplies of oil and natural gas, we have a choice.

No. You have no choice as far as an American invasion is concerned. That's just ridiculous.

Not to mention, how do you posit that Quebec has a power that other provinces do not?

Because they are willing to put separatism to a vote. What makes you think that such a vote would ever succeed in Alberta, when it has never succeeded in Quebec, where it has a much better chance? Albertan separation is just talk radio stuff and the dream of a minority of fanatics.

They aren't avoiding being taxed for healthcare! They already paid for it! Now they need the funds to get to the ****ing people who paid the ****ing taxes!

Is this some new math you are challenged by?

It appears to be you who is challenged.

Everyone in Canada pays tax to support the same healthcare for every Canadian. Rich people pay more; rich provinces pay more. That's how progressive taxation works.

Now to say that Ontario should pay less in equalization payments means that the health care of Canadians in other provinces will suffer.

Ontario can complain that the standard of healthcare in Ontario is worse than that of other provinces, and request a bigger share of the federal pot. That's reasonable. But I use the system and its working OK as far as I can see. In any case, such whining is not a threat to the system but a request for it to be rejigged in light of the facts.

You cannot say that Ontario has no power to affect the federal government: Ontario voters have the most.

What Ontarians can't do is whine that they pay more so they should get more. That's not how taxation works (for good reasons, which right wingers are patently unable to understand).

Add to this that the province is not taking in enough provincial tax to support its own services, but is trying to welsh out on its obligations to the rest of the Canada, and you have a better picture.

[Dinner]

Aggie, you keep ignoring the fact that Quebec isn't a poor place but it still gets huge amounts of money.

[Agathon]

Aggie, you keep ignoring the fact that Quebec isn't a poor place but it still gets huge amounts of money.

That's because there is a serious separatist threat.

I'm not ignoring it at all, I'm suggesting that a lot of Ontario's problems reside with its own residents rather than the equalization scheme.