The Bush Tapes

[Dis]

you guys are crazy!

Bush just can't repeal all the drug laws. He'd probably be impeached. You are overstating the power of the president. The president just can't do what he wants.

[Berzerker]

Drake

The fact that you consider Bush personally culpable for the imprisonment of people based on drug laws that predate Bush's presidency and will exist after his term is over is a bit laughable, isn't it?

He enforces those laws and he knew he would be in that position if elected. The fact others passed the laws doesn't absolve him of anything, otherwise, the "I was just following orders/precedent" argument would be viable. I mean, did Lincoln's complicitly in the genocide of Indians absolve later presidents of their complicity in genocide? We cannot argue our sins are to be ignored because our predecessors sinned as well...

[Drake Tungsten]

you guys are crazy!

No ****...

[Dis]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Drake

He enforces those laws and he knew he would be in that position if elected. The fact others passed the laws doesn't absolve him of anything, otherwise, the "I was just following orders/precedent" argument would be viable. I mean, did Lincoln's complicitly in the genocide of Indians absolve later presidents of their complicity in genocide? We cannot argue our sins are to be ignored because our predecessors sinned as well...

you're comparing a night in jail with the genocide of Indians. Yes, as long as you aren't dealing you won't spend more than a night in jail. If even that.

[Berzerker]

Diss

you guys are crazy!

Bush just can't repeal all the drug laws.

He can pardon people. He can declare the drug laws unconstitutional, which they are. Or, he could not apply for the job of Caesar...

He'd probably be impeached. You are overstating the power of the president. The president just can't do what he wants.

Then he shouldn't have run for office if he could not fulfill the job's requirements out of respect for Jesus and the religion he professes. I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Diss

He can pardon people. He can declare the drug laws unconstitutional, which they are. Or, he could not apply for the job of Caesar...



Then he shouldn't have run for office if he could not fulfill the job's requirements out of respect for Jesus and the religion he professes. I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

unconstitutional? He's not in the supreme court. He can't do **** about the laws.

yeah sure he can pardon people. It's difficult to pardon millions of people.

You guys don't understand how things are done in Washington. You don't **** over your own party (the republican party) and expect to get the things you want done, done.

And Bill Clinton did the same thing!

[Berzerker]

you're comparing a night in jail with the genocide of Indians. Yes, as long as you aren't dealing you won't spend more than a night in jail. If even that.

People have spent years in jail for possession albeit the Draconian punishments were in the past. But I'm comparing the principle involved, not the results. Drake said Bush wasn't responsible for enforcing laws he didn't pass (when has he ever opposed those laws?).
That argument is applicable to any law and any president, not just Bush and drug laws - a principle is involved.

If slavery was still legal and the punishment for helping a runaway slave was a night in jail, would that mean the president who enforced that law was not culpable for jailing offenders because someone else made the law? No...

[Berzerker]

unconstitutional? He's not in the supreme court. He can't do **** about the laws.

He took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not the opinions of the SCOTUS. When Thomas Jefferson entered office he refused to enforce the Alien and Sedition Act after declaring it unconstitutional.

yeah sure he can pardon people. It's difficult to pardon millions of people.

I could do it my first day in office with a simple edict - everyone in federal prison for drug possession is hereby pardoned.

You guys don't understand how things are done in Washington. You don't **** over your own party (the republican party) and expect to get the things you want done, done.

We know Diss, but Bush's political alliances of convenience do not create the moral authority to punish people for doing what he has done.

And Bill Clinton did the same thing!

That looks like Drake's argument, "he did it before me".

[Imran Siddiqui]

When Thomas Jefferson entered office he refused to enforce the Alien and Sedition Act after declaring it unconstitutional.

Um... not quite. The Alien and Sedition Act expired in March 3, 1801, the day before Jefferson took over. So he simply did not extend it. There was no declaring anything unconstitutional.

[Drake Tungsten]

And Marbury v. Madison hadn't even happened yet...

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Berzerker
But doesn't one lose the moral authority? The adulteress did something wrong according to Jesus, yet he "defended" her by pointing to the wrongs of her would be punishers. Its not about recognising a wrong you've committed, thats where repentance and hopefully forgiveness enters the picture, but how can one retain the moral authority to punish others for doing what you have done? Should they not have the same opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness in due time?

They wanted to put Jesus in a situation where he could be accused of not upholding the Law. The adulteress "caught in the act" was brought to Jesus. So where was the man? They had set her up and let the stool pidgeon go, and thus were guilty themselves.

The leaders who wanted to trap Jesus weren't convicted, but they also weren't willing to throw the first stone. They preferred to work by stirring up the crowds so that they had deniability. So when the crowds wouldn't join their hypocrisy they backed off.

I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

So have you turned yourself in for every time you've broken the speed limit or let a parking meter expire? In this country we have a right to freedom from self-incrimination. We have absolutely no obligation to turn ourselves in for minor offenses.

Do you want to claim every personal use drug conviction is their very first use? They all have the opportunity to change their ways before they get caught.

[Berzerker]

Um... not quite. The Alien and Sedition Act expired in March 3, 1801, the day before Jefferson took over. So he simply did not extend it. There was no declaring anything unconstitutional.

Jefferson believed there was a horizontal set of checks and balances, with the three branches checking each other, though only "in their own sphere of action." The Judiciary could overrule a lower court on a case. It could not, in his opinion, rule on acts of the Legislature or Executive. The Executive could refuse to implement a law it believed to be unconstitutional. Jefferson also believed there was a vertical set of checks and balances. States are bound by the Constitution as well, but a state could refuse to comply with a Federal law it considered unconstitutional. All powers not expressly granted to the Federal government were reserved for the states; states could enact their own laws about matters over which the Federal government has no jurisdiction. Jefferson did not necessarily object to regulation of speech in principle.

edsitement.neh.gov/view_lesson_plan.asp?id=536

The A&S was a big issue in the election Jefferson won several months before being sworn in and he said he would not enforce it and the above was his rationale.


And whats up with fantasy baseball? We better get this thing going asap.

[Berzerker]

They wanted to put Jesus in a situation where he could be accused of not upholding the Law. The adulteress "caught in the act" was brought to Jesus. So where was the man? They had set her up and let the stool pidgeon go, and thus were guilty themselves.

Jesus turned to her once they were gone and told her to sin no more. She was guilty... And Jesus did not tell them to go find the man and punish them both...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Actually, I just value a person who manages to turn away from drugs and succeed more than I do a person who pisses away all his talent in a stew of substances before finally blowing his own brains out.

This so called "success" is such a joke. Just look at Mr Bush's ventures with oil companies - one failed company after another. Such a success.

[Drake Tungsten]

This so called "success" is such a joke. Just look at Mr Bush's ventures with oil companies - one failed company after another. Such a success.

I'd consider becoming president of the U.S. to be a success. Not as awesome a job as being emperor of Japan, but pretty damn close.