Chavez is loony, looney, looney.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Che, which could?

You mean crrowd? That comment was directed at DinoDoc and his fellow right wingers. You're a liberal, despite your economic conservatism.

[chequita guevara]

Your second link sez the economy's booming, btw. You've PWNed yerself.

[GePap]

Excuse me, but that report which mentions the poverty figures at the end shows significant GDP growth. How come they did not make it this negative "real growth"? After all, she also mentions the high inflation numbers, which she says is one of the causes of growing poverty (since wages grew more slowly than inflation).

What gives? How come the very articlesa you point to back up Kid's point of significant GDP growth, and not your assertion of economic decline for 2004? And since when does economic growth always equal less poverty? That is based on the distribution of the economy, not its total size.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Your second link sez the economy's booming, btw. You've PWNed yerself.

However, he did provide statistics backing his claim that poverty has dramatically risen. What good does an economic boom when it's of no use for the peopple?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap
How come NO one, not one signel press outfit uses Oerdins "real growth" notion?

If no one takes it upon themselves to subtreact, then it makes me deeply question the entire notion of Oerdin's economic "case".

Thought I wish el freako was here to set us economically right.

OK, then leave aside the inflation numbers and instead look at the poverty rate. How do you get increasing poverty with 18% yearly economic growth? Unless of course inflation is eatting that growth up.

[Drogue]

Exactly. So Chavez's main economic failing is that while real GDP grew significantly, it was distributed unequally. Which clearly calls for wealth redistribution

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Drogue

That was true before Chavez came to power, as the quote shows in context. He hasn't made it any better, true, but he didn't create that poverty level. That's why you can have 17.3% real GDP growth and still have high poverty levels.

Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Oerdin
OK, then leave aside the inflation numbers and instead look at the poverty rate. How do you get increasing poverty with 18% yearly economic growth? Unless of course inflation is eatting that growth up.

As said, it's very easy. It's unequally distributed. The 17.3% growth is in real GDP, but most of this goes to people owning the Oil or the other industries.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

Thats a different claim from saying the economy shrunk.

You can show poverty has grown, but NO ONE has backed your claim of a shrinking economy.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. The U.S. tried to kill Casto dozens of times. They tried to kill an anti-U.S. contra leader in the 80s. They tried to kill several Sandanista leaders. They killed Lumumba. They had Allende killed. If you're a Latin American leftist, the chaces are good that the U.S. wants you dead.

Granted that during the cold war the US was extremely anti0communist and bullied Latin America on a regular basis. For the last 10-15 years since the cold war ended we
ve had a much better record.

[chequita guevara]

According to that 2002 Beeb article you've repeatedly linked, Oerdin, the economy is being looted by the elites and there's a lot of corruption in the government (from way back). Chavez is leading an anti-corruption campaign, so that should help push things in the right direction.

Now, applying a little grey matter to the situation, as the oil wealth is owned by a few, and oil is apporximately 80% of the economy, the fact that oil prices rose last year, pouring more money into Venezuela, doesn't mean things got better for ordinary people. Chavez is trying to diversify the economy, so that more people can share in the wealth.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by GePap


Thats a different claim from saying the economy shrunk.

You can show poverty has grown, but NO ONE has backed your claim of a shrinking economy.

If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Drogue, the 1998 (year before Chavez) poverty rate was was 47% (see first page) while the 2004 poverty rate was around 70%. Any way you look at it the poverty rate is much worse then before Chavez.

I would take issue with the first figure, as the BBC article clearly states before Chavez the poverty rate was 2/3rds, as you have quoted. Yes, the poverty rate has increased under Chavez, but it was very high to start with, and the difference is not as high as you claim.

The main thing is that different groups calculate poverty in different ways. The UN definition is living on under $1 (US) per day, rebased to 2000 dollars. However the article quoting 70% stated extreme poverty and total poverty, which is not necessarily the same as the UN definition. Until you can assert that what both consider is poverty is the same, you cannot compare their figures.

Compare figures from the same provider, so they are calculated in the same way, and then see the difference.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Granted that during the cold war the US was extremely anti0communist and bullied Latin America on a regular basis. For the last 10-15 years since the cold war ended we
ve had a much better record.

Tell that to Aristide and also the Ecuadoran peasantry. Nor should we forget our aiding brutal governments in Columbia and Peru. I'm surprised at you, Oerdin. That's a typical conservative line, "Well, yes, there were problems in the past, but we're better now." We still shield anti-Castro terrorists, including one bastard who bombed an airliner killing 87 people on board. He's walking around Miami even as we type.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin


If the economy is booming then how do you get a 2/3 increase in poverty (47% to 71%)?

Different or more accurate measures.