The song you are listening to right now.

[Asher]

As for Santana before Rob Thomas...

I don't really think you have any argument that his guitar playing is just good enough.

Compare the success of Supernatural to his previous albums...

Acapulco Sunrise (1999)
Abraxas (1998)
Between Good & Evil (1998)
Soul Sacrifice (1995)
Brothers (1995)
Milagro (1992)

All smash hits, to be sure...

I know about his previous hit songs, but even then, none were on the same scale as Smooth, and they were all long ago. Smooth brought Santana back into the modern music.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, you sure did pwn me then, what with using your own source which turned out to be wrong...

I explicitly asked earlier if they won any awards this year, and I also said I did not follow them...yet you didn't volunteer that information...

Cause Google is so hard to use. I should reward your laziness? Of course, you didn't bother to check up on it and trumphantly proclaimed they only had 1 win!

And if you're going to divide Thomas' recognition in half because it was a collaboration, I expect you to do the same with Green Day's members...what is that, 1/4?

Laziness again... I mean you claim they are so old, yet you have no idea that there have always been 3 members of Green Day. And I said Green Day trumps Thomas, I didn't say Billie Joe Armstrong or Mike Dirnt or Tre Cool do, did I?

Jesus Imran, maybe I was wrong about this whole philosophy thing -- you honestly do need some help with your thinking abilities and argument building.

As you keep on getting beat and beat and beat.

I'm not familiar with Ray Charles' work, and I never said a damn thing about him.

"if he was good by himself, he'd not have asked for help from people like Rob Thomas."

So do people who do compliation albums not very good by themselves because they have to ask for help? Come on, what were you really trying to say here? Since Santana had to ask help on an album he wasn't good by himself, or were you just being 'cute'?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Cause Google is so hard to use. I should reward your laziness? Of course, you didn't bother to check up on it and trumphantly proclaimed they only had 1 win!

I was using the official Grammy site that you gave me the link to. How was I to know it wasn't accurate?

Laziness again... I mean you claim they are so old, yet you have no idea that there have always been 3 members of Green Day. And I said Green Day trumps Thomas, I didn't say Billie Joe Armstrong or Mike Dirnt or Tre Cool do, did I?

What kind of correlation is there between them being old and knowing they only have 3 members? Did I miss something?

And if the award is given to "Green Day", how is it any different than if the award is given to "Santana feat. Rob Thomas"? Don't all members of this collaboration usually get credit? Hell, don't they all get to take home a Grammy...?

As you keep on getting beat and beat and beat.

Throw some more inaccurate links at me and then laugh at me for using them. I could use some more of your unique blend of beating...

So do people who do compliation albums not very good by themselves because they have to ask for help? Come on, what were you really trying to say here? Since Santana had to ask help on an album he wasn't good by himself, or were you just being 'cute'?

The previous ~10 albums before Supernatural and its hit single Smooth were complete flops in comparison. He wanted to be back on top, so he enlisted the industry's best songwriters to get him there. It doesn't require mind-bending leaps of faith to understand that.

[Agathon]

I don't really think you have any argument that his guitar playing is just good enough.

Just good enough? My old man was a professional guitarist, and he wouldn't have a word said against Carlos, nor would anyone else.

He's been a consistently successful musician for nearly 40 years, and has never sold out.

BTW - do you like the live Floyd? - I much prefer the extended solos.

[Agathon]

The previous ~10 albums before Supernatural and its hit single Smooth were complete flops in comparison. He wanted to be back on top, so he enlisted the industry's best songwriters to get him there.

He's never been much of a big album seller up until Supernatural. One reason is that he doesn't sing. He's been a pretty consistent live artist his whole career.

I don't think he really cared about being popular - he's a musicians' musician.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Just good enough? My old man was a professional guitarist, and he wouldn't have a word said against Carlos, nor would anyone else.

He's been a consistently successful musician for nearly 40 years, and has never sold out.

I absolutely respect the man, and he is an excellent guitarist.

I'm just making the point that Supernatural probably wouldn't have even sold a million copies, let alone what, 30 million copies, without the help of a better songwriter.

Just because the man can play the hell out of a guitar doesn't mean he's a great songwriter.

Similarly, Rob Thomas isn't exactly a great piano player, or a great guitar player...mediocre at them all. Same with his singing. He does know how to wrote melodic music with a lot of emotion in them, and that's what I happen to dig.

The whole Green Day/American Idiot thing doesn't sit well with me because there's just a lot of "noise" on the album. "Blvd. of Broken Dreams" is my favorite song on the album -- I actually like that one -- because it's melodic. It's musical to me. Most of the tracks on the album I couldn't stand listening to.

Just my thing...

BTW - do you like the live Floyd? - I much prefer the extended solos.

I haven't given them a listen yet, I've been busy tonight. I loaded them on my Zen and I'll give them a listen at work tomorrow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And if the award is given to "Green Day", how is it any different than if the award is given to "Santana feat. Rob Thomas"? Don't all members of this collaboration usually get credit? Hell, don't they all get to take home a Grammy...?

If you said "Santana featuring Rob Thomas" had more wins, then you'd be correct. You singled out Rob Thomas though.

Throw some more inaccurate links at me and then laugh at me for using them.

If Rob Thomas won this year (and he didn't) then it'd be inaccurate. What did I say when I linked it. Yep, I said, check out Thomas's Grammys. If you relied on it Green Day's awards without looking at this years winners then that's your mistake. Any inaccuracy is yours alone.

The previous ~10 albums before Supernatural and its hit single Smooth were complete flops in comparison. He wanted to be back on top, so he enlisted the industry's best songwriters to get him there. It doesn't require mind-bending leaps of faith to understand that.

Um... no. He made a compilation album to jam. Once again, I'll compare with Ray Charles. He hasn't been on top for a while, so was his compilation album simply an attempt to get back on top on the backs of the best young talent out there?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The whole Green Day/American Idiot thing doesn't sit well with me because there's just a lot of "noise" on the album. "Blvd. of Broken Dreams" is my favorite song on the album -- I actually like that one -- because it's melodic. It's musical to me. Most of the tracks on the album I couldn't stand listening to.

That's actually interesting ... I like that one too, but on another forum people were calling "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" crap and it brought down the rest of the album. They were speculating that they just created it for a single and sold out the tighteness of the album for it. Though I totally disagree.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
If you said "Santana featuring Rob Thomas" had more wins, then you'd be correct. You singled out Rob Thomas though.

It still counts as a win for him, Imran. He took home a Grammy. The song wouldn't have been nominated without him, he deserves the credit.

If Rob Thomas won this year (and he didn't) then it'd be inaccurate. What did I say when I linked it. Yep, I said, check out Thomas's Grammys. If you relied on it Green Day's awards without looking at this years winners then that's your mistake. Any inaccuracy is yours alone.

Oh, give me a break.

You threw me a link to the official Grammy Website and immediately began comparing how many grammies two artists have won. The obvious reference you've given is the implied source.

Don't try to weasle out of something so stupid...you ignored my question about how many grammys they gave, you gave me an inaccurate link, and then you chided me for not having the latest data...

Um... no. He made a compilation album to jam. Once again, I'll compare with Ray Charles. He hasn't been on top for a while, so was his compilation album simply an attempt to get back on top on the backs of the best young talent out there?

Comparing to Ray Charles with me is kinda pointless. Do you not recall me saying I don't know his work?

[Agathon]

The whole Green Day/American Idiot thing doesn't sit well with me because there's just a lot of "noise" on the album.

That's punk.

If you think that's "noise" you should hear Iggy & the Stooges Raw Power, or the Sex Pistols, or the first Clash album.

Ahhh... youth...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That's actually interesting ... I like that one too, but on another forum people were calling "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" crap and it brought down the rest of the album. They were speculating that they just created it for a single and sold out the tighteness of the album for it. Though I totally disagree.

The only two songs that stand out on the album are "American Idiot" and "Boulevard of Broken Dreams". I wasn't a big fan of "American Idiot", because it screamed of opportunism due to the proximity of the election, and was way too simplistic and shallow for my tastes. I also don't like political songs, even if I agree with them.

"Boulevard of Broken Dreams" is a good song, but it's different from everything else on the album.

I'm a big backer of melodies in music. That's what I look for in music. If there was any coherent melodies in most of their CD, it was lost in an awful mix job and a lot of noise. Which was obviously what their target audience wanted, the people on those other forums. It's not what I like, and I think it's just a cheap way of muddying the music,and actually detracts from it. Most of the modern punk music screams "i told u i was hardcore" to me more than anything else. It's a bunch of pussies who wear their hearts on their sleeves trying to sound harder.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It still counts as a win for him, Imran. He took home a Grammy. The song wouldn't have been nominated without him, he deserves the credit.

So Green Day gets 3 Grammies for each win? I guess that skews the numbers in their favor again.

You threw me a link to the official Grammy Website and immediately began comparing how many grammies two artists have won. The obvious reference you've given is the implied source.

Now give ME a break. You were the one saying Rob Thomas didn't share a grammy with Santana (it's right there if you want to check back). I provided the link to disabuse you of the notion.

If you want to press on your own laziness, go ahead, but you only look more foolish.

Comparing to Ray Charles with me is kinda pointless. Do you not recall me saying I don't know his work?

It's not for you... its for anyone else reading it. Same arguments can be made for both.

And how do you not know Ray Charles' work? He's only one of the biggest names in modern music!

[Agathon]

Comparing to Ray Charles with me is kinda pointless. Do you not recall me saying I don't know his work?

Get thee to a record store!!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Agathon

The whole Green Day/American Idiot thing doesn't sit well with me because there's just a lot of "noise" on the album.

That's punk.

If you think that's "noise" you should hear Iggy & the Stooges Raw Power, or the Sex Pistols, or the first Clash album.

Ahhh... youth...

Punk

"Jesus of Suburbia" is the best thing on that album. It's absolutely fabulous . I hope you've been enjoying it Aggie. I've been loving "Live at Leeds" and the Doors stuff has been great .

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Now give ME a break. You were the one saying Rob Thomas didn't share a grammy with Santana (it's right there if you want to check back). I provided the link to disabuse you of the notion.

If you want to press on your own laziness, go ahead, but you only look more foolish.

If you'll recall, you were the one who did that "1/2" crap by saying he split it with Santana. Since you were being pedantic, I was going to show you that you didn't know what you were actually talking about, since the songwriters for the Songwriter award didn't involve Santana in the slightest.

And how do you not know Ray Charles' work? He's only one of the biggest names in modern music!

You obviously have a different definition of modern music than I do.

Modern music to me is 1995+.

If you listed some of his famous songs, I've probably heard of them. It's just not my thing.