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Originally posted by Kontiki
I don't really have anything against Dean, but do you think he would have done a better job picking up the moderates?
Kerry didn't fight back as hard as Dean would have. When you're picking someone to defend you, you want the toughest scrappy dog in your corner, not the one who seeks to be above the fray. When Kerry did attack Bush, he didn't sound like he really believed what he was saying, but just throwing together sound bites of what he thought people wanted to hear. With Dean, you knew the man's heart was in it.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
I don't doubt what you say, I just question whether Dean would have been any more successful in the election.
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
Democrats moving farther left and Republicans moving farther right.
Any change there might be something emerge from the middle.
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
Originally posted by Kontiki
I don't doubt what you say, I just question whether Dean would have been any more successful in the election.
There's no way to know. Dean certainly would have committed his share of gaffs, but as he would have been on he offense, largely, it may not have hurt his as much as Kerry was hurt when he went on the defense.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
The only reason the Republicans have been doing well in the congressional elections since '94 is becase the republicans are using wedge issues like gay marrige to get the vote the religious progessives (socially conservative, economically liberal). My generation is the most socially liberal ever, so the social conservatives are fighting a loosing battle.
Hello? Kerry lost the election. Winning was not possible. The Dems sold out for nothing.
In which case thinking Kerry would play better to the moderates wasn't necessarily wrong, was it?
And for what it's worth, winning was not only possible, it should have been a near certainty. Just an absolutely brutal campaign on Kerry's part.
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
Dean: Moderate (yes, moderate) Vermont Governor turned Pres candidate whose de-centralized campaign in every state (DFA has a large following in Texas, for instance) and elegant articulation of left-wing values helped to revolutionize Democratic campaign finance, and his new organization Democracy for America is still quite strong. His campaign is to reform the DNC: by properly framing and articulating progressive politics, by placing more control in the hands of the grass roots and net roots, by running a permanent campaign in all 50 states (like the RNC does), rather than a nine month campaign in a handful. It is not about left vs. right; rather it's about reforming the Democratic Party or continuing to lose. He's by far the frontrunner with almost all of the committed votes - 38% of the total vote (he needs 50% + 1 to win).
Roemer: Former Congressman of 9/11 Commission fame who has has the backing of the establishment - Pelosi and Reid. He's quite conservative - isn't pro-choice, is for privatization of SS, etc., so he has virtually no traction among the DNC electors. He's also staunchly anti-reform. He has 1% of the vote.
Rosenberg: Another moderate reformer like Dean, his organization, the New Democratic Network, is an outgrowth of the DLC. The NDN ran Spanish language ads in places like Colorado, which were apparantly quite successful. His platform is similar to Dean's, with a stronger emphasis on building the infrastructure for creating and broadcasting a message. He's probably the smartest of the bunch, but isn't as good a speaker (and thus spokesman) as Dean. OTOH, he doesn't have half of the country thinking he's a left-wing loony. I'd be happy with him winning too. He's at 1% as well.
Fowler: Son of DNC bigwig of the same name, and a grass roots organizer, he's embraced a reformist message too. But he was involved with some scandal as Michigan Kerry campaign coordinator, which recently hurt him, and his stature seems to young to be chair (despite being as old as Rosenberg). He's probably better than McAuliffe, but I don't want him to win. He's running a distant second at 3%, now that Frost has dropped out.
Supposedly Roemer and Rosenberg will drop out very soon.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Originally posted by Kontiki
And for what it's worth, winning was not only possible, it should have been a near certainty. Just an absolutely brutal campaign on Kerry's part.
I disagree with you. We have 1 and a half parties in the US. The least we could do is go back to having two. Who wants a half a party to be in power. Dems will never win trying to be repugs, unless a guy like Clinton comes along every election.
I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett Kavanaugh
There's no way to know. Dean certainly would have committed his share of gaffs, but as he would have been on he offense, largely, it may not have hurt his as much as Kerry was hurt when he went on the defense.
It seems to me the Rebublicans would have successfully painted him (rightly or wrongly) as being "too left" and he would've had to spend a whole lot of time defending or countering that. But like you say, there's no way to know.
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
They'd have painted whomever they were running against as "too left." The difference is that Kerry didn't go on the offense until a month and a half before the election, Dean would've done that from the start (indeed, he had been doing that from the start).
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
I disagree with you. We have 1 and a half parties in the US. The least we could do is go back to having two. Who wants a half a party to be in power. Dems will never win trying to be repugs, unless a guy like Clinton comes along every election.
Do you really think Kerry ran as good a campaign as he could or that Bush was the second coming of Regan? From where I stand, Kerry's campaign was awful and he still didn't lose by much.
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
Originally posted by Sava
Dean ran Vermont in a very Centrist manner. He's not on "the left" of the party. He's mainstream.
Don't confuse anti-Bush feelings for far left-wing ideology.
He's farther left than average for a Democrat, but just barely. Anyone with the idea that he represents the far left is mistaken.
"You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran
Finally, the Democrats can put the "opposition" back into an opposition party.
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
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