Dark Ages NES

[Micha]

The Saxon-Thuringian Union

Ambrus the Bold, leader of the Germanic forces and defacto ruler of the Union, has reached Hammaburg with his troops. Looking over the blue waters of the mighty Elbe river, he thought hard about the upcoming war against the Northerners. Jutes, they call themselves. Angels and Pommeranians also live across the stream, but they are friendly to the Saxons and farmers at heart. Those Jutes might be strong, but they are far stretched and used to offensive combat. Without the initiative, they will be just men at arms, ordinary warriors, vulnerable, mortal.

Ambrus gathered his men. More of the young and daring have joined his ranks, as here in the north there have been raids by the Jutes just a few months ago. The people hate them, long for revenge. Many of the new warriors have sworn to avenge their families. They look up to Ambrus as the one man who is able to lead them to victory.

Before the army crossed the river to start the campaign in Jutland, Ambros ordered the women and old men to leave Hammaburg as he expected a counterattack there. These folks should go up the Elbe river and settle in the middle of the large serpent. There, as he knew from his former voyages, the earth is fertile and the neighbours are friendly. The new town should be called Magdeburg, "Fort of the Maid".

In early spring, the army of Ambros was transported by ship across the Elbe river to the land of the Jutes. The other peoples living there are friendly, so none of them are to be harmed in any way. The evil Jutes, however, are facing their destruction...

ORDERS
*build town of Magdeburg (please look up the correct place :P )
*March against Jutland (all lands northeast of Hammaburg); conquer, don´t burn.
*send envoys to the Synode of the Byzantines. We´ve yet to decide about Christian faith
*Start building of cathedrals to the Eastern Christian church in both Köln and Regensburg

[Micha]

here´s what I picture for my country:

edit: darn, wrong pic, sorry for triple post...

[Micha]

The map:

[Cyclotron]

The Emperor of the Romans receives the Saxon (Or Thuringinan? Or German? ) emissaries with great pomp and circumstance at splendid Constantinople, as soon as he is able to find someone who can understand their most curious language.

He regrets to inform them that, by its nature, a Synod is a meeting of church clergy regarding theological concerns. The Emperor is impressed by their interest, however, and - so that their journey will not be in vain - personally takes them on a tour of Constantinople, showing them the magnificent church of Hagia Sophia (it worked to convert the Russians ) and having his priests tell them of the Glory of God and Christ.

He returns the ambassadors with assurances of the good will and friendship of the Empire, a priest of Constantinople to tell their leader of Christianity, and a magnificent silk robe for the Saxon leader Ambrus - made from the secret silk factories of the Imperial Palace.

In private, he wonders how these foreigners can go so long without baths, and has the palace floors washed just to be on the safe side.

[appleciders]

Thanks Micha, that'll help.

Edessa to Byzantium:
We acknowledge your peaceful words, unexpected as they are.

[Cyclotron]

Lord Nuclear, could you clarify something for me?

We must kill the infidels who mock us, and the other People of the Book. Roman Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all other people will be able to join.

Aren't the Byzantines, who are "Roman Christians," as you say, People of the Book as well?

If you mean Roman Christians vs. "Orthodox" Christians, I have to point out that, at this time, there was no schism between the churches - that only became 'official' in the 11th century. The only serious divisions in Christianity of a theological nature are between the church and the eastern heretic churches - Copts, Monophysites, Nestorians, etcetera.

[Micha]

Saxon-Thuringian Union to Byzantine Empire

Hail Emperor Basileus Leo IV, ruler of the mighty Byzantines!

I am Curth, son of Ambrus the bold. My father sends his greetings to you, along with these twelve Jutean slaves. He was very impressed when he heard what the envoys to Constantinople told him about the wonders of that city. Especially that monotheism idea has attracted many sympathizers, however we know too little about it to bring the new faith to an organized state. Ambrus, lord of the Saxons, therefor asks his majesty for support in building a strong christian church in the north. We´d need many clergymen, plans for cathedrals and some gold to start on a few church buildings in Köln (Colonia Agrippina) and Regensburg (Castra Regina).

In exchange, Ambrus acknowledges the patriarch of Constantinople as the head of church and will send troops to support the Byzantine war efforts.

In friendship,

Curth, son of Ambrus, Saxon ambassador to the Byzantines.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Lord Nuclear, could you clarify something for me?



Aren't the Byzantines, who are "Roman Christians," as you say, People of the Book as well?

If you mean Roman Christians vs. "Orthodox" Christians, I have to point out that, at this time, there was no schism between the churches - that only became 'official' in the 11th century. The only serious divisions in Christianity of a theological nature are between the church and the eastern heretic churches - Copts, Monophysites, Nestorians, etcetera.

Byzantium is at war with Rome, thus there is a split in the church. Arabia has declared the Byzantinian church heretics and idol-worshippers.

[Cyclotron]

To the Saxon Ambassador Curth,

I have been informed of the desire of your father, Ambrus the Bold, to better understand Our Lord and to spread the Word of God in the lands of the Saxons. I am truly gladdened to hear of his sincere interest, and I assure you and your father that the rewards of salvation through Jesus Christ are great indeed.

With the agreement of the Emperor of the Romans, Leo IV, I have sent 40 priests and monks under the leadership of the episkopos (bishop) Dionysios Kaloethes, who will oversee the priests within your father's realm. Though 40 may not seem like many, they will be able to train your people who show willingness and faith to be priests themselves. We also send with them a supply of gold solidus coin to procure supplies for the building of the churches he has requested, as well as an architect and two apprentices chosen specifically by the Emperor.

The Emperor also wishes to convey to your father his thanks for your gift of slaves, and informs him that any military assistance provided would be appreciated. He also sends to him two of his favorite warhorses from the Imperial stables, which he hopes your father will enjoy.

In the Name of the Lord God, Most Holy,
Constantine II
Patriarch of Constantinople

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
Byzantium is at war with Rome, thus there is a split in the church. Arabia has declared the Byzantinian church heretics and idol-worshippers.

Alright, thank you.

Out of interest, appleciders, has the church of the Byzantine Empire been excommunicated, or are we just at political odds with Rome for the moment? How close are the New Roman Emperor and the Pope?

[appleciders]

Shoot, it's been a couple months since I did the initial research for this NES. I believe that the Great Schism between the Greek and Roman churches has already taken place, and there has certainly been very little religious intrigue in Christianity in this NES. This NES started in 740 A.D., and whatever the status quo was then, still stands.

[Cyclotron]

Well, if we are going historically, there is no schism yet in 740 AD, at least not in any theological sense. The rites used by the Latins and the Greeks are different - for example, one service is in Latin, the other Greek - but both sides view the other as being "true" Christians as well. The actual episode of mutual excommunication that formalized the divide occured in 1054, though the churches had been drifting apart for some time.

I believe that, at the date this scenario takes place, the split between pope and patriarch is viewed in much the same way as the split between the western and eastern Roman Emperors before the fall of the Western Empire: they are fairly independent of each other, but both consider themselves to be administering the same fundamental "empire."

Coincidentally, the breakup of the eastern heretic churches was due to the decisions at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which used a compromise to reconcile the pope and the patriarch, who were at loggerheads regarding the nature of Christ. This agreement was reached, but with the result of the heretic churches repudiating the council.

If we are going historically, the war between the two empires presently could be interpreted several ways. Since it was Byzantium that declared the war, it could well be that the Pope has excommunicated the Emperor, though he probably wouldn't excommunicate the Patriarch without a theological reason for doing so. Most popes and patriarchs in history actively tried to bridge the growing gap, not widen it. This excommunication, however, would end on Leo's death or his forgiveness - it would not be a permanent excommunication of the office of emperor. The Pope could also theoretically side with the Emperor, but the Pope tended to support his fellow Latins and this seems unlikely. It's also possible that the Pope hasn't done anything; in later centuries the wars between the Normans and the Byzantines over lower Italy did not, I belive, cause the Pope to start writing out excommunications.

Thus, if we are going historically, the Caliph's assertion that the Byzantines are heretics is unfounded - at best, he could argue that the breakaway churches of the Armenians and Nestorians are heretics, but in that case he'd be stating common knowledge. Or, he could argue that - if the Emperor was excommunicated - the Emperor was a heretic. Still, this would not be an indictment of the Empire itself or its citizens. At this date in history the divide between the east and the west is mostly political.

Of course, there is one final consideration: This is the first year of the reign of Leo IV. Thus, the war was declared by a previous emperor, and therefore - if the last emperor was excommunicated at the start of the war - the excommunication would not apply to the current emperor. Since I have yet to hear of a new excommunication, it can only be assumed that Leo IV at present is still in the good graces of the Papacy. Developments in Italy may quickly change that, however.

This is, of course, your scenario / NES, and the situation can be however you want it to be - if you would rather there be a schism already, I can do that. Whichever way it is, however, it would be nice to know for my diplomacy with the New Roman Empire and the Pope.

[appleciders]

Assume no schism, since there wasn't one when it started. Also assume no excommunication, because the Roman player has not declared one.

[Cyclotron]

Thank you.

[Cyclotron]

Note: The Naples defense force is listed in the army list, when your last update stated that Naples had fallen to the Byzantines.