ok, as the secrecy is broken ...

[Cyrion]

Re: ok, time for some decisions ...

Originally posted by jim panse
I realised that I would need many more unit slots but the civ2 engine has its limits. So I decided to ask you what do you think about having these multiunit gfx representing the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division. Commentz, please ...

They look great!

[PDifolco]

(unit level discussion)
Well, the whole MG affair occupied a dozen of Allied divs (3 Airbornes - 1 Brit and 2 US- and 30th Corps, that has IIRC 7 or 8 brigades/divs).
On the German side it's more like 4 divs (2.SS, Luftwaffe troops plus a host of smaller units...).

Battalion level will results in approx 100 units per side (with many smaller than a real Bn on German side) : anything below will gives too much units, and higher will be too few...
So Bn level looks OK.

There's not much reason to make different units for equivalent Bns of different divs from the same country (such as 43rd and 50th Brits), except for immersion/looks. Anyway Civ doesn't include any support for organization at any level, so isn'it pointless ?

[jim panse]

Unit level discussion ... next part

I think i´ll do it this way: Because this scenario is designed for a gigamap one unit represents one company/battalion (depends on the unit). I think that size is quite ok because of the huge map.

Battalion level will results in approx 100 units per side (with many smaller than a real Bn on German side) : anything below will gives too much units, and higher will be too few...

This will come out with about 150 units for the germans and about 200-250 for the allies. Now I´m thinking about how much stronger the german units should be. Any ideas ...?

[PDifolco]

Not sure to understand your question...
Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer willpower when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

I suppose the trick is to correctly simulate the arms strengths and weaknesses :
Paras should be "strong infantry" unit
SS inf also, but more mobile due to transports
Other germans should be rather crappy (LW garrisons...)
Arty must be offensively powerful.
Armor should be difficult to kill by infantry, and strong in offense also.

Allies should have air superiority allowing for some tank-hunting and possibility to make 2nd drops.
Civ doesn't allow for "supply drops", I don't know how this can be simulated.

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by PDifolco
Not sure to understand your question...
Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer willpower when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

I suppose the trick is to correctly simulate the arms strengths and weaknesses :
Paras should be "strong infantry" unit
SS inf also, but more mobile due to transports
Other germans should be rather crappy (LW garrisons...)
Arty must be offensively powerful.
Armor should be difficult to kill by infantry, and strong in offense also.

Allies should have air superiority allowing for some tank-hunting and possibility to make 2nd drops.
Civ doesn't allow for "supply drops", I don't know how this can be simulated.

Keep in mind that since the allies will be the ones only playable, the German units must have increased stats to make up for the idiotic way the AI uses them.

[Dr. Nick]

Are you going to be making 'village' terrain with high defense values? If so, the survival of infantry on 'mountains (village)' terrain should be guarranteed against Panzers.

[Palaiologos]

As for the supply drops, these could function the same way airlifts do. A city in Belgium/France or England could be the base of operations and have an airport. There will be "supplies" units that must be airdropped to the operational zone. There will be a chance of German AAs intercepting them. Those supplies that do pass through can be disbanded by the player to build improvements and stuff. I suppose improvements will not be something like "stock exchange" and "SDI", but more WWII tactical oriented.

Just an early idea.

[Gagliaudo]

Jim Panse:
Wonderful idea Market-Garden scenario!
And your graphics really promise very well...
I saw the movie almost 3 times, it' great.
And I read the book (by Cornelius Ryan), also great!
Good work! Don't let us waiting too much...

[Gagliaudo]

weather...

The BritPara in Arnhem suffered a lot due hostile weather conditions, that didn't permit Sosaboswski and other brave guys to be paradropped there in time to help Frost & co.
Perhaps that bridge wasn't so far...

[Dr. Nick]

If they had been encountered by old men on bicycles and Hitler youth the bridge was close enough to wrap up by tea time and enjoy a cup of Earl Grey.

BTW, British paratroopers had red berets.

[jim panse]

trying to answer ...

Ok, let me see ...

(1)

Not sure to understand your question...Why should Germans be "stronger" ?? The trick with MG is that Allies have Paras, those guys were toughs but were on foot and couldn't stand arty and armor by sheer will power when they ran out of ammo at Arnhem !

Well, the answer to this is that the Waffen SS units were something like the elite of the 3rd Reich (or supposed to be). Especially in combat they fought like devils (moretheless). And Palaiologos has another version of this:

Keep in mind that since the allies will be the ones only playable, the German units must have increased stats to make up for the idiotic way the AI uses them.

(2)

Are you going to be making 'village' terrain with high defense values? If so, the survival of infantry on 'mountains (village)' terrain should be guarranteed against Panzers.

Yes. I replaced not the mountains but only a "ordinary" terrain to make the cities larger. This was necessary due to the huge map.

(3)

As for the supply drops, these could function the same way airlifts do. A city in Belgium/France or England could be the base of operations and have an airport. There will be "supplies" units that must be airdropped to the operational zone. There will be a chance of German AAs intercepting them. Those supplies that do pass through can be disbanded by the player to build improvements and stuff. I suppose improvements will not be something like "stock exchange" and "SDI", but more WWII tactical oriented.

The city improvements will meet the circumstances. The thing with the supplies will be a harder nut. The map represents only a small frame to make the tactics more important (as far as the civ2 engine makes this possible). It covers parts of the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany with the major rivers and channels.

(4)

The BritPara in Arnhem suffered a lot due hostile weather conditions, that didn't permit Sosaboswski and other brave guys to be paradropped there in time to help Frost & co.

Well, you can inform you on various pages on the www, mainly the officials of the US Army and the Royal Army.
Fact is that only one small troop - Frost´s - made its way to the bridge in Arnhem. And one battalion against a SS Panzerkorps is not that much. However, I won´t judge this any longer. Since you all may have seen the brilliant movie that it could have been more than one reason ....

It was Nijmegen...

or

It was before Nijmegen....

or

It was the fog in England....

This you may decide on your own

[Dr. Nick]

The single road to Nijmegen!

[fairline]

If you haven't already found it, a great site for maps and OOBs is this:

http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html

[Boco]

955 Pz Div looks a lot like 9SS Pz Div to optical recognition software.

[jim panse]

Thanks fairline

If you haven't already found it, a great site for maps and OOBs is this: http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html

Yes, I found this page but I have to confess that my personal favourite is www.remeberseptember1944.com.

ad 9th SS Panzerdivision: I found an order of battle describing the strenght of this division like this:
32 PzKpfw IV, 49 PzKpfw V Panther, 21 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. What do you say?

and for the 10th SS Panzerdivision:
28 PzKpfw IV, 58 PzKpfw V Panther, 20 Jagdpanzer IV, 28 StuG III. And about this?


And some other useful links:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/inhaltsverzeichnis1.htm

A good page, dedicated to the German Wehrmacht but complete in german but with additional information about anything carrying weapons in Germany after WW1.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/index.htm

Another very good and detailed page where you'll be able to find information on World War II vehicles, their history (with some photos), and their specifications.

and last but not least ...

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/index.htm

This is a site about the history of the 3rd Reich and its allies.


At the end of February 19th some units from the scenario ...
British 1st Airborne Infantry, US 101st Airborne "Screaming Eagles", US 82nd Airborne "All American", XXX Corps Infantry Platoon/Company, XXX Corps MG Platoon/Company, XXX Corps Field Artillery Battery, XXX Corps PIAT Platoon/AT-Company, XXX Corps MG Platoon/Company

It seems that there are two MG Platoons/Companies. This will not be in the release version

For anybody who doesn´t know what PIAT stands for: Projected Infantry Anti-Tank.