ok, as the secrecy is broken ...

[Palaiologos]

It was Nijmegen...

It was before Nijmegen....

It was the fog in England....


Quote from the movie.

[Palaiologos]

Monty is proud and pleased. He believes the operation was 90% successfull.....



Another quote from the movie.

[Dr. Nick]

It was the single road to Nijmegen.

I love Sosabowski's character, personally.

[The ANZAC]

yeah that was a good movie. BTW who did Connery play in it?

[Dr. Nick]

Urquhart. And Hopkins was Frost. Dirk Bogarde was General Browning, Gene Hackman played Sosabowski. Michael Caine was the wretched peasant in command of XXX Corps in the field.

[DarthVeda]

****ing Monty...

[jim panse]

answers ...

(1)

Jim, I did a small experimental Market-garden scenario a few years ago. It was a half-scale conceptual model for testing my bridge capture/demolition system. More recently, I've been collecting detailed OOB info. Since you're ready to go, I'd be happy to share the material with you if you'd be interested.

this is fantastic. i will call upon thee .... thanks in advance

(2)

Great subject jim. Just to be pedantic, you got a couple of the British Divisional shields wrong. Yhe 43rd Wessex division symbol was a gold wyvern on a blue ground, and the 50th Northumbrian Division had 2 red 'T's on a black ground:

thanks for correcting this, gareth. i found my divisional signs on various pages on the net.

(3)

Sorry to say this Stephan, but the American MG looks crap.

this shall be some airborne Vickers MG, not an america. due to the unit limitation it´s not possible to create a MG for each para division.

(4)

BTW how many projects are you working on?

this one, since 3 months , sewastopole, the cold war crisis and the ottoman empire. last week i saw "a bridge too far" again and thought to go on with this one ..... sorry the iraq thing i postponed after mr bush´s stupid war (yes, i don´t believe any longer in some peaceful solutions including the US, another sorry ...)

btw, i think the britishámerican differences came out very well (eg "... and say please...")

[fairline]

I think Edward Fox played XXX corps commander Brian Horrocks. Michael Caine played the Irish Guards commander JOE Vandeleur.

[fairline]

Originally posted by DarthVeda
****ing Monty...

hey, what was wrong with Monty - he won the war practically single handed

He defeated Rommel before the Yanks finally turned up for the war, his brilliant strategy destroyed the Nazis in Normandy and he helped the Yanks out of the mess they got themselves into in the Ardennes

Seriously, Market-Garden was a bold plan which, if it had worked, would have got the British across the Rhine 5 or 6 months earlier then they did. What ****ed it all up was the unknown presence of 2 SS panzer divisions at Arnhem, which were re-equiping after heavy losses in a supposedly peaceful area. That and the fact that the 1st Airborne was dropped way too far from Arnhem.

BTW Jim, I see you have got the divisional shield of 2 SS Pz div - this unit wasn't present at Arnhem - the two SS Divisions were 9SS and 10SS

[jim panse]

(1) let me thank you for the shields of the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division.

(2)

BTW Jim, I see you have got the divisional shield of 2 SS Pz div - this unit wasn't present at Arnhem - the two SS Divisions were 9SS and 10SS

I´ve got 2 different types of information:

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps commanded by SS Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich consisted of the 2nd SS Panzerdivision "Das Reich" and the 955th Panzer Division. (btw, this one I doubt even more after you mentioned the 9th and 10th SS Panzerdivision)

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the the 9th SS Panzerdivision "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" (I attached the divisional signs below, on the left the 9th, on the right the 10th)

[PDifolco]

Originally posted by jim panse
(1) let me thank you for the shields of the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division.

(2)
I´ve got 2 different types of information:

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps commanded by SS Obergruppenführer Willi Bittrich consisted of the 2nd SS Panzerdivision "Das Reich" and the 955th Panzer Division. (btw, this one I doubt even more after you mentioned the 9th and 10th SS Panzerdivision)

- The 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the the 9th SS Panzerdivision "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS Panzerdivision "Frundsberg" (I attached the divisional signs below, on the left the 9th, on the right the 10th)

Is it serious ? 955th Pz Div, as if they were near 1000 of'em ?

2.SS PzKorps at MG time was indeed composed of 9th and 10th SS PzDiv - both of them very depleted and were resting near Arnhem. 9th had NO tanks, and 10th only had maybe 2 Coys worth of tanks !

I have very detailed OOBs of the battle, straight out of BFC game "Airborne Assault" if you need

[jim panse]

2nd SS Panzerkorps

Ok, the 2nd SS Panzerkorps consisted of the 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. I´m making some additional research about their orders of battle. At http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/index.htm i found this about the 9th SS Panzerdivision:

- Manpower strength
Dec 1943 19.611
June 1944 15.898
Dec 1944 19.000

- Order of battle
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 19
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 20
SS-Panzer Regiment 9
SS-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 9
SS-Panzer-Aufklarung-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 9
SS-Flak-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzer-Pioneer-Abteilung 9
SS-Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 9
SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 9
SS-Beoachtungs-Batterie 9
SS-Nachschubtruppen 9
SS-Panzer-Instandsetzungs-Abteilung 9
SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion 9
SS-Verwaltungstruppen-Abteilung 9
SS-Sanitäts-Kompanien 9
SS-Feldlazarett
SS-Krankenkraftwagenzug 9
SS-Feldpostamt 9
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 9
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 9
SS-Feldersatz-Battalion 9
SS-Ausbildungs-Battalion 9

and this about the 10th Panzerdivision:

- Manpower strength
Dec 1943 19.313
June 1944 13.552
Dec 1944 15.542

- Order of battle
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 21
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 22
SS-Panzer Regiment 10
SS-Panzer Artielleie Regiment 10
SS-Kradschutzen-Regiment 10
SS Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 10
SS Panzerjäger-Abteilung 10
SS Flak-Abteilung 10
SS Pioneer-Abteilung 10
SS Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung 10
SS-Verwaltungs Truppen 10
SS-Instandsetzungs Abteilung 10
SS-Sanitats Abteilung 10
SS-Nachschub Truppen 10
SS-Feldpostamt 10
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 10
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 10

Especially the manpower statisitc is interesting.

2.SS PzKorps at MG time was indeed composed of 9th and 10th SS PzDiv - both of them very depleted and were resting near Arnhem. 9th had NO tanks, and 10th only had maybe 2 Coys worth of tanks !

I think that a very depleted and exhausted Panzerkorps would not have been able to crush the allies in Arnhem (if the whole 1st Parachute Division has been there .....)

The manpower indicates that these divisions should rest but they were far from being shadows of themselves.

I have very detailed OOBs of the battle, straight out of BFC game "Airborne Assault" if you need

Yes, if you are so kind t send me these OOBs. Send it to steph_sander@hotmail.com, please. Thanks in advance

[PDifolco]

Not to nitpick about it, but the fact was that the SS divs lost most of their heavy equipment during the retreat from France Q3 1944.
They however were still highly motivated, 10th SS had mucho arty, and the few armor they had was still more than the 0 armor figure of an Airborne Div...
Additionally they were not alone, German Army had many smaller units in the vicinity, and reinfs were also send in quite fast - amongst them some Hv Pz battalion with Tigers (those were independent and not attached to a div).
I'll try to compile a useful OB for you, but what level do you want ? Man/machines count, company or battalion level ?

[jim panse]

ok, time for some decisions ...

I realised that I would need many more unit slots but the civ2 engine has its limits. So I decided to ask you what do you think about having these multiunit gfx representing the 43rd Wessex and the 50th Northumbrian Division. Commentz, please ...

[jim panse]

I think battalion level would be fine ...